From lojban+bncCNTPpI2KGxCH5obtBBoEPQ9dzg@googlegroups.com Sun Apr 10 06:39:36 2011 Received: from mail-vx0-f189.google.com ([209.85.220.189]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1Q8urU-00023e-Rf; Sun, 10 Apr 2011 06:39:36 -0700 Received: by vxk20 with SMTP id 20sf2137143vxk.16 for ; Sun, 10 Apr 2011 06:39:26 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:x-beenthere:received-spf:x-authority-analysis :x-cloudmark-score:x-originating-ip:from:to:subject:date:user-agent :references:in-reply-to:mime-version:message-id:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:x-google-group-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender :list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type :content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition; bh=twLg940F3ihQkjUy3gkxrxo5cu9EUPrpTB0W9FX5itI=; b=mi86I+UMmZDLV1g+ok15PS1+ZPSLKRelDKhpBjzO7kkouJeL+QLekrhruI3MuwyyAI MzrT4dbs/eo9xFLmrFpFPFbcXPuij84ak1xAQdYF+nDYV1YZ1IKnZuJ1qRnGYhAY9etF Yc+so0GNHvWH0+qV2NnIPmXRDeke1JzIfrjA8= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:x-authority-analysis:x-cloudmark-score :x-originating-ip:from:to:subject:date:user-agent:references :in-reply-to:mime-version:message-id:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:x-google-group-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender :list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type :content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition; b=S+xcH6145mVmX2ca3PMo17zmaGrgVxsVaPCI7k6tM17Hgq66i12iVS0E2jRhbMO1Sm R4tQtfrHfEF3yKdFkWv+Ms/Bv/du8k6lqJVJcqnH20S4ft/aiIE3uEHi5Ay2LsBq/NUa ZD8AmTaPRpJXC8AS/gZOvlixGuioU4InnpRWY= Received: by 10.220.110.87 with SMTP id m23mr490524vcp.31.1302442759551; Sun, 10 Apr 2011 06:39:19 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.220.113.208 with SMTP id b16ls1616351vcq.0.p; Sun, 10 Apr 2011 06:39:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.220.125.26 with SMTP id w26mr1130129vcr.23.1302442758629; Sun, 10 Apr 2011 06:39:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.220.125.26 with SMTP id w26mr1130128vcr.23.1302442758615; Sun, 10 Apr 2011 06:39:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from cdptpa-omtalb.mail.rr.com (cdptpa-omtalb.mail.rr.com [75.180.132.120]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTP id d14si1092036vbv.1.2011.04.10.06.39.18; Sun, 10 Apr 2011 06:39:18 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: neutral (google.com: 75.180.132.120 is neither permitted nor denied by best guess record for domain of phma@phma.optus.nu) client-ip=75.180.132.120; X-Authority-Analysis: v=1.1 cv=2pE2Kh9Ye2ywHyyFZnC5ZQ1FvuPrdOtuPO5uN4ysVDU= c=1 sm=0 a=6ti_TD8eFm8A:10 a=ivqCtNlkxfYA:10 a=wPDyFdB5xvgA:10 a=8nJEP1OIZ-IA:10 a=9o99xeNKNPYSmM5t9x5+TQ==:17 a=EflGV8V1EpQCRxyLHaYA:9 a=wPNLvfGTeEIA:10 a=9o99xeNKNPYSmM5t9x5+TQ==:117 X-Cloudmark-Score: 0 X-Originating-IP: 75.176.118.168 Received: from [75.176.118.168] ([75.176.118.168:41520] helo=chausie) by cdptpa-oedge03.mail.rr.com (envelope-from ) (ecelerity 2.2.3.46 r()) with ESMTP id A3/8C-05159-603B1AD4; Sun, 10 Apr 2011 13:39:18 +0000 Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by chausie (Postfix) with ESMTP id F1C131E405 for ; Sun, 10 Apr 2011 09:39:11 -0400 (EDT) From: Pierre Abbat To: lojban@googlegroups.com Subject: Re: [lojban] phonetics was: what's the deal with place tags? Date: Sun, 10 Apr 2011 09:38:08 -0400 User-Agent: KMail/1.9.6 (enterprise 0.20070907.709405) References: <0a74da06-07cf-4b52-a329-ed0ebbae2f5b@u8g2000yqh.googlegroups.com> <4DA19614.9040908@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <4DA19614.9040908@gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: <201104100938.14566.phma@phma.optus.nu> X-Original-Sender: phma@phma.optus.nu X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=neutral (google.com: 75.180.132.120 is neither permitted nor denied by best guess record for domain of phma@phma.optus.nu) smtp.mail=phma@phma.optus.nu Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline On Sunday 10 April 2011 07:35:48 And Rosta wrote: > You're kind of missing the point. It doesn't matter at all if a Lojban > speaker has trouble saying [zb] or [ml], because /z(%)b/ and /m(%)l/ can = be > realized not only as [zb] and [ml] but also as [z =A3 b] and [m =A3 l], w= here > "=A3" stands for whatever the realization of % is. > > Furthermore, relevant considerations go beyond mere articulatory difficul= ty > to include also acoustic distinctiveness. For example, even if [ml] is ea= sy > to say, it might be hard for either speaker or hearer to reliably > distinguish /lemlatu/ [lemlatu] from /lemblatu/ [lemblatu], but much easi= er > to distinguish /lem%latu/ [lemylatu] from /lemblatu/ [lemblatu]. Likewise > for /ns/ vs /nts/ and other clusters; judicious use of the buffer vowel c= an > mitigate some of the failings of Lojban phonology. /nts/ isn't allowed. I don't know about how buffer vowels work in natlangs, but I do know there = is=20 at least one. Armenian has both a buffer vowel and a letter for schwa. From= =20 what I've read, they're pronounced the same. Pierre --=20 I believe in Yellow when I'm in Sweden and in Black when I'm in Wales. --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou= ps.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= ?hl=3Den.