From lojban+bncCOjSjrXVGBC36YjtBBoEi1A9ZA@googlegroups.com Sun Apr 10 15:52:58 2011 Received: from mail-ew0-f61.google.com ([209.85.215.61]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1Q93Uz-0003KT-Nb; Sun, 10 Apr 2011 15:52:58 -0700 Received: by ewy5 with SMTP id 5sf555687ewy.16 for ; Sun, 10 Apr 2011 15:52:47 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version :in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:x-google-group-id:list-post :list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe :content-type; bh=HCySV2h6j2PxQbOkODBgLlZaxgMvOUsrhe1eK6wwc4A=; b=Lskq5MdUQHGy5lKx3CWCpCWksR6BK926OHlQmVG1g4BcbD6xLgta/gaSsjosX1ku7K PwinQZEniQvSFk5g4z3QkZOXfdrlf2wRDnAcoMzmlOzwyBOjGdSPY/u//OpEOi21AZSB 3bCf3Lmwd8YNNsfLmbOwXKQIPVlF2nq6zBUXI= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from :date:message-id:subject:to:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:x-google-group-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender :list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; b=vCpKkSyA+uuAA1fV2i2g5rml/Z3IeoG9Zu3Mj6TeV/ktzEaSQVpGYUgiBsu3+MqI9c WjJPvE/plhUs+j25KqPTmwuTRlNIuxRyY1DLgYREm1lvs1bLLoeescFSKZ5OpuUGSaZI 9Oh9ezZUpCt5JY6Xvge/nY4Sx2nvdn9lu+yzM= Received: by 10.213.13.74 with SMTP id b10mr189334eba.1.1302475959653; Sun, 10 Apr 2011 15:52:39 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.14.7.210 with SMTP id 58ls438705eep.1.p; Sun, 10 Apr 2011 15:52:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.14.32.68 with SMTP id n44mr518398eea.7.1302475957572; Sun, 10 Apr 2011 15:52:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.14.32.68 with SMTP id n44mr518397eea.7.1302475957540; Sun, 10 Apr 2011 15:52:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-ey0-f171.google.com (mail-ey0-f171.google.com [209.85.215.171]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id l57si1636576eei.4.2011.04.10.15.52.37 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Sun, 10 Apr 2011 15:52:37 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of lukeabergen@gmail.com designates 209.85.215.171 as permitted sender) client-ip=209.85.215.171; Received: by eydd26 with SMTP id d26so1980434eyd.2 for ; Sun, 10 Apr 2011 15:52:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.213.108.144 with SMTP id f16mr751317ebp.136.1302475957215; Sun, 10 Apr 2011 15:52:37 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.213.33.75 with HTTP; Sun, 10 Apr 2011 15:52:17 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: From: Luke Bergen Date: Sun, 10 Apr 2011 18:52:17 -0400 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban] Regularization To: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Original-Sender: lukeabergen@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of lukeabergen@gmail.com designates 209.85.215.171 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=lukeabergen@gmail.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=000e0cd1fbbec2230c04a098509b --000e0cd1fbbec2230c04a098509b Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Maybe I'm thinking of lujvo creation but I thought that the BAI were not strictly defined based on their source gismu (i.e. {broda bau lo jbobau} is not necessarily identical to {broda fi'o bangu lo jbobau}). I see the definition of {va'o} and it does seem to have some kind of causality. How do you interpret "under condition" without implying that {brode} is conditional on {broda}? Normally I would use va'o in something like {mi citka va'o da'i lo nu mi xagji}. Is this not a fair translation of "If I am hungry, I eat"? If not, how would you translate the english? {ri'a} feels like it's *too* causal as if my being hungry forces me to eat (and there is no stopping that from happening). Am I just wanting too much from a logical language where natural languages have built in nuances like {da'i ca lo nu mi xagji kei mi so'iroi citka}? On Sun, Apr 10, 2011 at 12:13 PM, Jonathan Jones wrote: > On Sun, Apr 10, 2011 at 8:59 AM, Ian Johnson wrote: > >> On IRC we were observing that common usage of {va'o} is not really >> consistent with its definition as a BAI associated with {vanbi}. Instead, it >> winds up being used like a nonlogical "if", that is one with causation >> implied in some way. We then went into some ideas about how one might >> correct this to make things regular again--redefine va'o, use another gismu >> to tie to va'o, bring in a new cmavo to mean what va'o is supposed to mean, >> etc. >> >> And then I realized that this is "regularization"--taking a regular >> language that has evolved with usage slightly, but not a whole lot, and >> attempting to take the new, evolved language and make it regular again. Is >> there a policy or something on this subject? That is, is it official that >> Lojban is free to go as it pleases? >> >> mu'o mi'e .latros. >> > > Not at this point, no. Lojban is now, and will likely remain for a long > time, a proscribed language.Any proposed modification of the language must > be approved by the BPFK in order to be part of the language. The xorlo > proposal is an excellent example of this. > > > -- > mu'o mi'e .aionys. > > .i.a'o.e'e ko cmima le bende pe lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu > do zo'o > (Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D ) > > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "lojban" group. > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. --000e0cd1fbbec2230c04a098509b Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Maybe I'm thinking of lujvo creation but I thought that the BAI were no= t strictly defined based on their source gismu (i.e. {broda bau lo jbobau} = is not necessarily identical to {broda fi'o bangu lo jbobau}).

I see the definition of {va'o} and it does seem to have some= kind of causality. =A0How do you interpret "under condition" wit= hout implying that {brode} is conditional on {broda}? =A0

Normally I would use va'o in something like {mi citka va'o da&= #39;i lo nu mi xagji}. =A0Is this not a fair translation of "If I am h= ungry, I eat"? =A0If not, how would you translate the english? =A0{ri&= #39;a} feels like it's too=A0causal as if my being hungry forces= me to eat (and there is no stopping that from happening). =A0

Am I just wanting too much from a logical language wher= e natural languages have built in nuances like {da'i ca lo nu mi xagji = kei mi so'iroi citka}?

On Sun, Apr 10= , 2011 at 12:13 PM, Jonathan Jones <eyeonus@gmail.com> wrote:
On Sun, Apr 10, 2011 at 8:59 AM, Ian Johnson <blindbravado@gmail.co= m> wrote:
On IRC we were observing that common usage of {va'o} is not really cons= istent with its definition as a BAI associated with {vanbi}. Instead, it wi= nds up being used like a nonlogical "if", that is one with causat= ion implied in some way. We then went into some ideas about how one might c= orrect this to make things regular again--redefine va'o, use another gi= smu to tie to va'o, bring in a new cmavo to mean what va'o is suppo= sed to mean, etc.

And then I realized that this is "regularization"--taking a r= egular language that has evolved with usage slightly, but not a whole lot, = and attempting to take the new, evolved language and make it regular again.= Is there a policy or something on this subject? That is, is it official th= at Lojban is free to go as it pleases?

mu'o mi'e .latros.

Not at this p= oint, no. Lojban is now, and will likely remain for a long time, a proscrib= ed language.Any proposed modification of the language must be approved by t= he BPFK in order to be part of the language. The xorlo proposal is an excel= lent example of this.


--
mu'o mi'e .aionys.

= .i.a'o.e'e ko cmima le bende pe lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi= patfu do zo'o
(Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D )


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