From lojban+bncCML0xpmUARD9jYntBBoEhXygOQ@googlegroups.com Sun Apr 10 17:10:59 2011 Received: from mail-wy0-f189.google.com ([74.125.82.189]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1Q94iR-0002u0-H8; Sun, 10 Apr 2011 17:10:59 -0700 Received: by wya21 with SMTP id 21sf5460574wya.16 for ; Sun, 10 Apr 2011 17:10:44 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version :in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:x-google-group-id:list-post :list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe :content-type; bh=C5UeAeY8MFHaiIq7HDzqphUtdTqebjtNNYJNiXJhJ8o=; b=EBT0yS+ccVUVdO2js1WhBPow4zjor4LlWyPHg/qSSd1HI141pKI/Rge2yEjMqerYye BX09/zTSaVQzzQiD9raQLoYUdnac7DRVwENLPhwQ8O9qqssF1DAL1m1IVF7UejNosFDC qdCYY0YJ05HS1TxN49w5pGVr27rEHV8xXuNXI= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date :message-id:subject:from:to:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:x-google-group-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender :list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; b=CuAXGkq0Me0i98ME0470qpNbEvKzY0Ww9J7Dt4yYGjyj5XkUQ2oZ0qv4Y8ug4TD1P9 7bEu9yCK2tWMP/yDNPchdrNzofnqru9TAfzM7FJSKEr0YDdio4L46PPnB1PLBMUZ/etU 3dzmq9rhJPALWq/ALOMp+cHXIyVwTNAzvE5hM= Received: by 10.216.80.202 with SMTP id k52mr442913wee.18.1302480637458; Sun, 10 Apr 2011 17:10:37 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.227.139.31 with SMTP id c31ls2087316wbu.0.p; Sun, 10 Apr 2011 17:10:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.227.32.148 with SMTP id c20mr291484wbd.21.1302480636288; Sun, 10 Apr 2011 17:10:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.227.32.148 with SMTP id c20mr291483wbd.21.1302480636263; Sun, 10 Apr 2011 17:10:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-ww0-f52.google.com (mail-ww0-f52.google.com [74.125.82.52]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id m32si1504668wbm.4.2011.04.10.17.10.35 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Sun, 10 Apr 2011 17:10:35 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of blindbravado@gmail.com designates 74.125.82.52 as permitted sender) client-ip=74.125.82.52; Received: by wwe15 with SMTP id 15so7359598wwe.9 for ; Sun, 10 Apr 2011 17:10:35 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.216.245.131 with SMTP id o3mr4122464wer.97.1302480635099; Sun, 10 Apr 2011 17:10:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.216.244.10 with HTTP; Sun, 10 Apr 2011 17:10:34 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: Date: Sun, 10 Apr 2011 20:10:34 -0400 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban] Regularization From: Ian Johnson To: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Original-Sender: blindbravado@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of blindbravado@gmail.com designates 74.125.82.52 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=blindbravado@gmail.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=e0cb4e43d00f94fa4204a09967a1 --e0cb4e43d00f94fa4204a09967a1 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Pretty sure BAI == fi'o BAPLI. Loosening this rule was one of our ideas, though. mu'o mi'e .latros. On Sun, Apr 10, 2011 at 6:52 PM, Luke Bergen wrote: > Maybe I'm thinking of lujvo creation but I thought that the BAI were not > strictly defined based on their source gismu (i.e. {broda bau lo jbobau} is > not necessarily identical to {broda fi'o bangu lo jbobau}). > > I see the definition of {va'o} and it does seem to have some kind of > causality. How do you interpret "under condition" without implying that > {brode} is conditional on {broda}? > > Normally I would use va'o in something like {mi citka va'o da'i lo nu mi > xagji}. Is this not a fair translation of "If I am hungry, I eat"? If not, > how would you translate the english? {ri'a} feels like it's *too* causal > as if my being hungry forces me to eat (and there is no stopping that from > happening). > > Am I just wanting too much from a logical language where natural languages > have built in nuances like {da'i ca lo nu mi xagji kei mi so'iroi citka}? > > > On Sun, Apr 10, 2011 at 12:13 PM, Jonathan Jones wrote: > >> On Sun, Apr 10, 2011 at 8:59 AM, Ian Johnson wrote: >> >>> On IRC we were observing that common usage of {va'o} is not really >>> consistent with its definition as a BAI associated with {vanbi}. Instead, it >>> winds up being used like a nonlogical "if", that is one with causation >>> implied in some way. We then went into some ideas about how one might >>> correct this to make things regular again--redefine va'o, use another gismu >>> to tie to va'o, bring in a new cmavo to mean what va'o is supposed to mean, >>> etc. >>> >>> And then I realized that this is "regularization"--taking a regular >>> language that has evolved with usage slightly, but not a whole lot, and >>> attempting to take the new, evolved language and make it regular again. Is >>> there a policy or something on this subject? That is, is it official that >>> Lojban is free to go as it pleases? >>> >>> mu'o mi'e .latros. >>> >> >> Not at this point, no. Lojban is now, and will likely remain for a long >> time, a proscribed language.Any proposed modification of the language must >> be approved by the BPFK in order to be part of the language. The xorlo >> proposal is an excellent example of this. >> >> >> -- >> mu'o mi'e .aionys. >> >> .i.a'o.e'e ko cmima le bende pe lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu >> do zo'o >> (Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D ) >> >> >> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >> "lojban" group. >> To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. >> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >> lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. >> For more options, visit this group at >> http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. >> > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "lojban" group. > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. --e0cb4e43d00f94fa4204a09967a1 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Pretty sure BAI =3D=3D fi'o BAPLI. Loosening this rule was one of our i= deas, though.

mu'o mi'e .latros.

On Sun, Apr 10, 2011 at 6:52 PM, Luke Bergen <<= a href=3D"mailto:lukeabergen@gmail.com">lukeabergen@gmail.com> wrote:
Maybe I'm thinking of lujvo creation bu= t I thought that the BAI were not strictly defined based on their source gi= smu (i.e. {broda bau lo jbobau} is not necessarily identical to {broda fi&#= 39;o bangu lo jbobau}).

I see the definition of {va'o} and it does seem to have some= kind of causality. =A0How do you interpret "under condition" wit= hout implying that {brode} is conditional on {broda}? =A0

Normally I would use va'o in something like {mi citka va'o da&= #39;i lo nu mi xagji}. =A0Is this not a fair translation of "If I am h= ungry, I eat"? =A0If not, how would you translate the english? =A0{ri&= #39;a} feels like it's too=A0causal as if my being hungry forces= me to eat (and there is no stopping that from happening). =A0

Am I just wanting too much from a logical language wher= e natural languages have built in nuances like {da'i ca lo nu mi xagji = kei mi so'iroi citka}?


On Sun, Apr 10, 2011 at 12:13 PM, Jonathan Jones <eyeonus@gmail.com>= ; wrote:
On Sun, Apr = 10, 2011 at 8:59 AM, Ian Johnson <blindbravado@gmail.com> wrote:
On IRC we were observing that common usage of {va'o} is not really cons= istent with its definition as a BAI associated with {vanbi}. Instead, it wi= nds up being used like a nonlogical "if", that is one with causat= ion implied in some way. We then went into some ideas about how one might c= orrect this to make things regular again--redefine va'o, use another gi= smu to tie to va'o, bring in a new cmavo to mean what va'o is suppo= sed to mean, etc.

And then I realized that this is "regularization"--taking a r= egular language that has evolved with usage slightly, but not a whole lot, = and attempting to take the new, evolved language and make it regular again.= Is there a policy or something on this subject? That is, is it official th= at Lojban is free to go as it pleases?

mu'o mi'e .latros.

Not at this p= oint, no. Lojban is now, and will likely remain for a long time, a proscrib= ed language.Any proposed modification of the language must be approved by t= he BPFK in order to be part of the language. The xorlo proposal is an excel= lent example of this.


--
mu'o mi'e .aionys.

= .i.a'o.e'e ko cmima le bende pe lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi= patfu do zo'o
(Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D )


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