From lojban+bncCOjSjrXVGBDumYntBBoE01FVmw@googlegroups.com Sun Apr 10 17:36:28 2011 Received: from mail-ew0-f61.google.com ([209.85.215.61]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1Q9571-0002ty-J4; Sun, 10 Apr 2011 17:36:28 -0700 Received: by ewy5 with SMTP id 5sf558219ewy.16 for ; Sun, 10 Apr 2011 17:36:06 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version :in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:x-google-group-id:list-post :list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe :content-type; bh=8wSKGkAA1p2PEdSmckGVuzRd1EyqdM/PtmC4f9AH8wo=; b=kMRgwuqBBbBBf/pr9rIsizyLKJxjXZZIa7rlPoiJ27RekccecTYFLJFKEpYwou6mYi oLOWO0Mtpj7TQGwv4/oBVacW56ZMS+rWxWRZMmA459J8JAgmIecO89UPNRGR5kDkfx/w DgBQFemK5vG+PEoo8P7C6nVQD4Z/mz7M539UU= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from :date:message-id:subject:to:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:x-google-group-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender :list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; b=6nmIHny/hUZDK3CBAxrXxdrXJQYabuZUP4if+nYeNJU9ED+OMdm8TYtapaJIf3jcj3 6QCcsd1lYjtCBSINwS4Zq1sCQHUZr+yZ628H3K0d2jgd+Gq3tpDXHLX6g5JdKpY3vvng KqnvEiYEyFXOpTOjkk0lNkUl18wVok6Zt1xco= Received: by 10.213.13.74 with SMTP id b10mr201073eba.1.1302482158574; Sun, 10 Apr 2011 17:35:58 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.14.42.6 with SMTP id i6ls6111eeb.3.p; Sun, 10 Apr 2011 17:35:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.14.122.147 with SMTP id t19mr410782eeh.53.1302482156630; Sun, 10 Apr 2011 17:35:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.14.122.147 with SMTP id t19mr410781eeh.53.1302482156565; Sun, 10 Apr 2011 17:35:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-ew0-f53.google.com (mail-ew0-f53.google.com [209.85.215.53]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id l57si1658707eei.4.2011.04.10.17.35.56 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Sun, 10 Apr 2011 17:35:56 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of lukeabergen@gmail.com designates 209.85.215.53 as permitted sender) client-ip=209.85.215.53; Received: by ewy8 with SMTP id 8so1764237ewy.26 for ; Sun, 10 Apr 2011 17:35:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.213.108.144 with SMTP id f16mr773708ebp.136.1302482156300; Sun, 10 Apr 2011 17:35:56 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.213.33.75 with HTTP; Sun, 10 Apr 2011 17:35:36 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: From: Luke Bergen Date: Sun, 10 Apr 2011 20:35:36 -0400 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban] Regularization To: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Original-Sender: lukeabergen@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of lukeabergen@gmail.com designates 209.85.215.53 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=lukeabergen@gmail.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=000e0cd1fbbe40ab5604a099c22f --000e0cd1fbbe40ab5604a099c22f Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Oh. I must have been thinking lujvo. In that case, I have a feeling like there are probably many BAI that don't quite fit the source brivla (not that that makes it ok to continue doing). On Sun, Apr 10, 2011 at 8:10 PM, Ian Johnson wrote: > Pretty sure BAI == fi'o BAPLI. Loosening this rule was one of our ideas, > though. > > > mu'o mi'e .latros. > > On Sun, Apr 10, 2011 at 6:52 PM, Luke Bergen wrote: > >> Maybe I'm thinking of lujvo creation but I thought that the BAI were not >> strictly defined based on their source gismu (i.e. {broda bau lo jbobau} is >> not necessarily identical to {broda fi'o bangu lo jbobau}). >> >> I see the definition of {va'o} and it does seem to have some kind of >> causality. How do you interpret "under condition" without implying that >> {brode} is conditional on {broda}? >> >> Normally I would use va'o in something like {mi citka va'o da'i lo nu mi >> xagji}. Is this not a fair translation of "If I am hungry, I eat"? If not, >> how would you translate the english? {ri'a} feels like it's *too* causal >> as if my being hungry forces me to eat (and there is no stopping that from >> happening). >> >> Am I just wanting too much from a logical language where natural languages >> have built in nuances like {da'i ca lo nu mi xagji kei mi so'iroi citka}? >> >> >> On Sun, Apr 10, 2011 at 12:13 PM, Jonathan Jones wrote: >> >>> On Sun, Apr 10, 2011 at 8:59 AM, Ian Johnson wrote: >>> >>>> On IRC we were observing that common usage of {va'o} is not really >>>> consistent with its definition as a BAI associated with {vanbi}. Instead, it >>>> winds up being used like a nonlogical "if", that is one with causation >>>> implied in some way. We then went into some ideas about how one might >>>> correct this to make things regular again--redefine va'o, use another gismu >>>> to tie to va'o, bring in a new cmavo to mean what va'o is supposed to mean, >>>> etc. >>>> >>>> And then I realized that this is "regularization"--taking a regular >>>> language that has evolved with usage slightly, but not a whole lot, and >>>> attempting to take the new, evolved language and make it regular again. Is >>>> there a policy or something on this subject? That is, is it official that >>>> Lojban is free to go as it pleases? >>>> >>>> mu'o mi'e .latros. >>>> >>> >>> Not at this point, no. Lojban is now, and will likely remain for a long >>> time, a proscribed language.Any proposed modification of the language must >>> be approved by the BPFK in order to be part of the language. The xorlo >>> proposal is an excellent example of this. >>> >>> >>> -- >>> mu'o mi'e .aionys. >>> >>> .i.a'o.e'e ko cmima le bende pe lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu >>> do zo'o >>> (Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D ) >>> >>> >>> -- >>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >>> "lojban" group. >>> To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. >>> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >>> lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. >>> For more options, visit this group at >>> http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. >>> >> >> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >> "lojban" group. >> To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. >> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >> lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. >> For more options, visit this group at >> http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. >> > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "lojban" group. > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. --000e0cd1fbbe40ab5604a099c22f Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Oh. =A0I must have been thinking lujvo.

In that case, I = have a feeling like there are probably many BAI that don't quite fit th= e source brivla (not that that makes it ok to continue doing).

On Sun, Apr 10, 2011 at 8:10 PM, Ian Johnson <blindbravado@gmail.com> wr= ote:
Pretty sure BAI =3D=3D fi'o BAPLI. Loosening this rule was one of our i= deas, though.


mu'o mi'e .latros.

On Sun, Ap= r 10, 2011 at 6:52 PM, Luke Bergen <lukeabergen@gmail.com> wrote:
Maybe I'm thinking of lujvo creation but= I thought that the BAI were not strictly defined based on their source gis= mu (i.e. {broda bau lo jbobau} is not necessarily identical to {broda fi= 9;o bangu lo jbobau}).

I see the definition of {va'o} and it does seem to have some= kind of causality. =A0How do you interpret "under condition" wit= hout implying that {brode} is conditional on {broda}? =A0

Normally I would use va'o in something like {mi citka va'o da&= #39;i lo nu mi xagji}. =A0Is this not a fair translation of "If I am h= ungry, I eat"? =A0If not, how would you translate the english? =A0{ri&= #39;a} feels like it's too=A0causal as if my being hungry forces= me to eat (and there is no stopping that from happening). =A0

Am I just wanting too much from a logical language wher= e natural languages have built in nuances like {da'i ca lo nu mi xagji = kei mi so'iroi citka}?


On Sun, Apr 10, 2011 at 12:13 PM, Jonathan Jones <eyeonus@gmail.com>= ; wrote:
On Sun, Apr = 10, 2011 at 8:59 AM, Ian Johnson <blindbravado@gmail.com> wrote:
On IRC we were observing that common usage of {va'o} is not really cons= istent with its definition as a BAI associated with {vanbi}. Instead, it wi= nds up being used like a nonlogical "if", that is one with causat= ion implied in some way. We then went into some ideas about how one might c= orrect this to make things regular again--redefine va'o, use another gi= smu to tie to va'o, bring in a new cmavo to mean what va'o is suppo= sed to mean, etc.

And then I realized that this is "regularization"--taking a r= egular language that has evolved with usage slightly, but not a whole lot, = and attempting to take the new, evolved language and make it regular again.= Is there a policy or something on this subject? That is, is it official th= at Lojban is free to go as it pleases?

mu'o mi'e .latros.

Not at this p= oint, no. Lojban is now, and will likely remain for a long time, a proscrib= ed language.Any proposed modification of the language must be approved by t= he BPFK in order to be part of the language. The xorlo proposal is an excel= lent example of this.


--
mu'o mi'e .aionys.

= .i.a'o.e'e ko cmima le bende pe lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi= patfu do zo'o
(Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D )


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