From lojban+bncCIycn8S8DhCi0IvtBBoE9foO0Q@googlegroups.com Mon Apr 11 04:38:27 2011 Received: from mail-vx0-f189.google.com ([209.85.220.189]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1Q9FRn-00040n-Nj; Mon, 11 Apr 2011 04:38:27 -0700 Received: by vxk20 with SMTP id 20sf2544670vxk.16 for ; Mon, 11 Apr 2011 04:38:17 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version :in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:x-google-group-id:list-post :list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe :content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=lDY5E4rK/aLlOSC8BKPmXL/1ZvZN5/HcKGH7qQRefvw=; b=2uKDXtDigVsnEG4AH0ArV2RbOfwwiA4TEZF9abp1WF87MDrCJ9S+72RFqG0Ewzp6nG pSHqf7IQpoVF5lAAxNKIhAEpdkUY2qgxEGN39o59esS0AR3+ZFsVcgKlEfQ/GiNPx658 MfqONlJsKvunwmHeOAfQRO/mfSJDTgJY1UBuI= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date :message-id:subject:from:to:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:x-google-group-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender :list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; b=m2BBDu0/hMg3C9ceK6I72FK3aONPPtPuqo0e6aJ5ec25ZbXHJavMhkwoIvkSQupMFq MqykYV3urRsbTQHf0RlImkXev30jGIqIoCFIja12Rd08+HGiYO3GSNSrw1uDi/ESTcYG 6pOK3nQTcx2QPH1bA4yitWEFYWhNRcaMSBnwA= Received: by 10.220.128.5 with SMTP id i5mr101058vcs.4.1302521890419; Mon, 11 Apr 2011 04:38:10 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.220.100.195 with SMTP id z3ls1856307vcn.2.p; Mon, 11 Apr 2011 04:38:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.52.70.44 with SMTP id j12mr1243086vdu.6.1302521889071; Mon, 11 Apr 2011 04:38:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.52.70.44 with SMTP id j12mr1243085vdu.6.1302521889057; Mon, 11 Apr 2011 04:38:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-qy0-f178.google.com (mail-qy0-f178.google.com [209.85.216.178]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id b16si1347119vby.2.2011.04.11.04.38.08 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Mon, 11 Apr 2011 04:38:09 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of mturniansky@gmail.com designates 209.85.216.178 as permitted sender) client-ip=209.85.216.178; Received: by mail-qy0-f178.google.com with SMTP id 2so4323668qyk.2 for ; Mon, 11 Apr 2011 04:38:08 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.224.193.10 with SMTP id ds10mr4092968qab.183.1302521888677; Mon, 11 Apr 2011 04:38:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.229.96.135 with HTTP; Mon, 11 Apr 2011 04:38:08 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: Date: Mon, 11 Apr 2011 07:38:08 -0400 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban] Regularization From: Michael Turniansky To: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Original-Sender: mturniansky@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of mturniansky@gmail.com designates 209.85.216.178 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=mturniansky@gmail.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable BAI is in fact fi'o [source gisme]. The REAL question though, in this instance, is how wide is the definition of "vanbi"? va'o to mean "under conditions" is perfectly acceptable when you understand that the x1 of vanbi can be a set of circumstances or context, not simply a physical environs. But also remember, va'o doesn't work as a counterfactual on its own. You must also have the da'i to mark it as hypothetical. --gejyspa On Sun, Apr 10, 2011 at 8:10 PM, Ian Johnson wrote= : > Pretty sure BAI =3D=3D fi'o BAPLI. Loosening this rule was one of our ide= as, > though. > > mu'o mi'e .latros. > > On Sun, Apr 10, 2011 at 6:52 PM, Luke Bergen wrot= e: >> >> Maybe I'm thinking of lujvo creation but I thought that the BAI were not >> strictly defined based on their source gismu (i.e. {broda bau lo jbobau}= is >> not necessarily identical to {broda fi'o bangu lo jbobau}). >> I see the definition of {va'o} and it does seem to have some kind of >> causality. =A0How do you interpret "under condition" without implying th= at >> {brode} is conditional on {broda}? >> Normally I would use va'o in something like {mi citka va'o da'i lo nu mi >> xagji}. =A0Is this not a fair translation of "If I am hungry, I eat"? = =A0If not, >> how would you translate the english? =A0{ri'a} feels like it's too=A0cau= sal as >> if my being hungry forces me to eat (and there is no stopping that from >> happening). >> Am I just wanting too much from a logical language where natural languag= es >> have built in nuances like {da'i ca lo nu mi xagji kei mi so'iroi citka}= ? >> >> On Sun, Apr 10, 2011 at 12:13 PM, Jonathan Jones >> wrote: >>> >>> On Sun, Apr 10, 2011 at 8:59 AM, Ian Johnson >>> wrote: >>>> >>>> On IRC we were observing that common usage of {va'o} is not really >>>> consistent with its definition as a BAI associated with {vanbi}. Inste= ad, it >>>> winds up being used like a nonlogical "if", that is one with causation >>>> implied in some way. We then went into some ideas about how one might >>>> correct this to make things regular again--redefine va'o, use another = gismu >>>> to tie to va'o, bring in a new cmavo to mean what va'o is supposed to = mean, >>>> etc. >>>> >>>> And then I realized that this is "regularization"--taking a regular >>>> language that has evolved with usage slightly, but not a whole lot, an= d >>>> attempting to take the new, evolved language and make it regular again= . Is >>>> there a policy or something on this subject? That is, is it official t= hat >>>> Lojban is free to go as it pleases? >>>> >>>> mu'o mi'e .latros. >>> >>> Not at this point, no. Lojban is now, and will likely remain for a long >>> time, a proscribed language.Any proposed modification of the language m= ust >>> be approved by the BPFK in order to be part of the language. The xorlo >>> proposal is an excellent example of this. >>> >>> >>> -- >>> mu'o mi'e .aionys. >>> >>> .i.a'o.e'e ko cmima le bende pe lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi pat= fu >>> do zo'o >>> (Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D ) >>> >>> -- >>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Grou= ps >>> "lojban" group. >>> To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. >>> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >>> lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. >>> For more options, visit this group at >>> http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den. >> >> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Group= s >> "lojban" group. >> To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. >> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >> lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. >> For more options, visit this group at >> http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den. > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "lojban" group. > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den. > --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou= ps.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= ?hl=3Den.