From lojban+bncCIycn8S8DhCXlYztBBoEO_SlOA@googlegroups.com Mon Apr 11 07:05:29 2011 Received: from mail-qw0-f61.google.com ([209.85.216.61]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1Q9Hk5-0003IJ-71; Mon, 11 Apr 2011 07:05:29 -0700 Received: by qwh5 with SMTP id 5sf7143958qwh.16 for ; Mon, 11 Apr 2011 07:05:19 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version :in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:x-google-group-id:list-post :list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe :content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=+1CMorUIf531Yse3oyl+rVdU1BhvY+6Ntbmcmxzh29Y=; b=LOy/rO37gaw9NFWzLiusuInEbIYl9487qQseMJH7LA3UrkhK5S5UfChiDWOOdrTjgv bOjj4Els3A8tpQn2yokpcXRwWOXQd5yYNNOCJQqLDVsw9pzSFGEltF/AJeJJPd0wRMmy DXVrSVR4CLp5yvnqVJdlHZW1myP3SS4uBnQOw= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date :message-id:subject:from:to:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:x-google-group-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender :list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; b=4FD9UhAmqDItJTdv1EQA7tPFAEbNf/q3abWFxedFcobRcwZKRuiKJUE5L9FcQLt4tS CO7LLqEpNW+lr5NzgJtP/bngPbpk6+UHzkpu1DgbJWFTFuFvKsPjuHLEFS7tKaGaE7i9 c0tdlnYAV6XYI64eu3LReB3qBvClgw7D2woWw= Received: by 10.229.88.147 with SMTP id a19mr577828qcm.26.1302530711751; Mon, 11 Apr 2011 07:05:11 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.229.69.21 with SMTP id x21ls1480280qci.2.p; Mon, 11 Apr 2011 07:05:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.229.130.166 with SMTP id t38mr330349qcs.28.1302530710904; Mon, 11 Apr 2011 07:05:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.229.130.166 with SMTP id t38mr330348qcs.28.1302530710882; Mon, 11 Apr 2011 07:05:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-qy0-f171.google.com (mail-qy0-f171.google.com [209.85.216.171]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id m42si1050384qcz.1.2011.04.11.07.05.09 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Mon, 11 Apr 2011 07:05:09 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of mturniansky@gmail.com designates 209.85.216.171 as permitted sender) client-ip=209.85.216.171; Received: by qyj19 with SMTP id 19so1388400qyj.2 for ; Mon, 11 Apr 2011 07:05:09 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.229.117.95 with SMTP id p31mr4180734qcq.97.1302530709619; Mon, 11 Apr 2011 07:05:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.229.96.135 with HTTP; Mon, 11 Apr 2011 07:05:09 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: Date: Mon, 11 Apr 2011 10:05:09 -0400 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban] Regularization From: Michael Turniansky To: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Original-Sender: mturniansky@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of mturniansky@gmail.com designates 209.85.216.171 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=mturniansky@gmail.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hmmm... not necessarily. Although I suppose there usually will be a krinu, rinka, mukti or nibli relationship, there may be none at all. For example, to slip into English idiom, "va'o da'i lo nu lo xarju cu vofli kei mi kansa do lo nu catlu lo selte'a skina" ("when pigs fly, I will see a scary move with you") My going isn't in any way motivated or caused by the pigs flying, it will just be coincident with it. OTOH, if you meant my particular example, it needn't be ri'a. Maybe I like the challenge of driving in the snow, so it's mukti. Maye the trains won't run, so it's krinu (or nibli). --gejyspa On Mon, Apr 11, 2011 at 9:14 AM, Luke Bergen wrote: > Thanks for the=A0explanation=A0gejyspa. =A0In your second example (the on= e using > da'i), is there any hint of "ri'a"ness in that "counter-factual"? =A0I th= ink > that's the heart of the matter. > > On Mon, Apr 11, 2011 at 8:49 AM, Michael Turniansky > wrote: >> >> =A0Counterfactual meaning not as things are, but as they might be. =A0So= , >> for example "va'o lo nu lo snime cu carvi kei mi ma'ekla le birju"-> >> "I drive to the office in the snow" ("in the situation of it snowing, >> I drive to the office") =A0"va'o da'i lo nu lo snime cu carvi kei mi >> ma'ekla le birju" -> "if it snows, I will drive to the office". =A0("in >> the theoretical situation of it snowing, I drive to the office") >> =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0Clearer? >> =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 --gejyspa >> >> >> On Mon, Apr 11, 2011 at 8:29 AM, Remo Dentato wrote= : >> > On Mon, Apr 11, 2011 at 1:38 PM, Michael Turniansky >> > wrote: >> >> But also remember, va'o doesn't work as a >> >> counterfactual on its own. You must also have the da'i to mark it as >> >> hypothetical. >> > >> > Could you elaborate a little bit? What do you mean with >> > "counterfactual"? >> > >> > -- >> > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >> > Groups "lojban" group. >> > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. >> > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >> > lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. >> > For more options, visit this group at >> > http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den. >> > >> > >> >> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Group= s >> "lojban" group. >> To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. >> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >> lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. >> For more options, visit this group at >> http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den. >> > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "lojban" group. > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den. > --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou= ps.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= ?hl=3Den.