From lojban+bncCOjSjrXVGBCpoYztBBoE7Dm9YA@googlegroups.com Mon Apr 11 07:38:59 2011 Received: from mail-ew0-f61.google.com ([209.85.215.61]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1Q9IGU-0004vb-Ey; Mon, 11 Apr 2011 07:38:59 -0700 Received: by ewy5 with SMTP id 5sf630696ewy.16 for ; Mon, 11 Apr 2011 07:38:48 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version :in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:x-google-group-id:list-post :list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe :content-type; bh=of1RGyVKIMDynzkCCEDvT+eJqhVdbMjKcGp7Xyt5bM4=; b=EeyADmwVTj6tdzBJ0QV9WkkvaSHc8aqNiCdG/8TYx/OafTYCftMSQHpydeFHgeE1gF uTIwo/qW+pLx2wecmMMRA2dovS4nQSmEgnaIBZZnh7VIf9197nIXjPXhQxPP/Tzz8Jzb yoAdBsy1R55cl18FLK1PGECKI7/ittjZEkaA0= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from :date:message-id:subject:to:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:x-google-group-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender :list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; b=0CVzfMo60BVD80iMk0Sg/ca7NcboBMKRkT9kWfF14rkQ0MQpjgSzdiW1doibFXVjHb 4T7AWnMAfG+m17oe5sGuE3RJlXBv7ik9LSJtQHmYZIWd85i9alFtbUytxV7fJBwYjPXd A2fQa+5uiDe15NopDLZz/ioFB57L5u/EqosUM= Received: by 10.213.2.65 with SMTP id 1mr1539396ebi.0.1302532266866; Mon, 11 Apr 2011 07:31:06 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.14.42.6 with SMTP id i6ls64498eeb.3.p; Mon, 11 Apr 2011 07:31:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.14.137.207 with SMTP id y55mr520146eei.17.1302532263556; Mon, 11 Apr 2011 07:31:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.14.137.207 with SMTP id y55mr520144eei.17.1302532263536; Mon, 11 Apr 2011 07:31:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-ew0-f43.google.com (mail-ew0-f43.google.com [209.85.215.43]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id p52si1851904eeh.7.2011.04.11.07.31.03 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Mon, 11 Apr 2011 07:31:03 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of lukeabergen@gmail.com designates 209.85.215.43 as permitted sender) client-ip=209.85.215.43; Received: by mail-ew0-f43.google.com with SMTP id 20so2966999ewy.30 for ; Mon, 11 Apr 2011 07:31:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.213.23.7 with SMTP id p7mr1010646ebb.60.1302532263137; Mon, 11 Apr 2011 07:31:03 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.213.33.75 with HTTP; Mon, 11 Apr 2011 07:30:43 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: <759730.3522.qm@web81303.mail.mud.yahoo.com> From: Luke Bergen Date: Mon, 11 Apr 2011 10:30:43 -0400 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban] Regularization To: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Original-Sender: lukeabergen@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of lukeabergen@gmail.com designates 209.85.215.43 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=lukeabergen@gmail.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=0015174c3f6eda50e604a0a56c1b --0015174c3f6eda50e604a0a56c1b Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 That's a good point. If I say {mi citka ba lo nu mi xagji} it is possible that there is causality baked in just via the fact that I'm stating that the bridi {mi citka ba lo nu mi xagji} is true and NOT NECESSARILY that {mi citka} is true. I wasn't asking specifically about {ri'a} vs {mu'i} vs etc... I was just asking if there was a causal connection between the two pieces. It very well COULD be that {mi citka ba lo nu mi xagji} and that {mi citka} and {mi xagji} only happen to come one after the other. {mi klama lo zdani ba lo nu mi pilno lo skami} doesn't necessarily imply anything other than "after I used the computer, I went home". No mu'i, ri'a, ni'i, etc... in that. (also, I think you ciska in lojban. If you're nu citka bau la lojban then your mom didn't teach you very good table manners =p ) On Mon, Apr 11, 2011 at 10:18 AM, Michael Turniansky wrote: > I would argue (and my opinion isn't necessarily the "one true way", > mind you) that yeah it makes a factual claim, as does the main bridi. > (Although I might simply phrase it "Having a pet dinosaur,...." (e.g. > "... I go through a lot of Bronto Chow in week") In other words, I > contend that with all BAI/FI'O constructions, you are making a factual > claim. "Mi citka bau la lojban" I am not just claiming that I write, > but I'm writing in lojban. Without the lojban part, the sentence just > isn't true. If I say "mi gunka ki'u lo nu mi nitcu lo jdini", if I > don't need the money, the bridi is not true. I am asserting "mi gunka > .ije mi nitcu lo jdini". "va'" is no different in this regard. > --gejyspa > > > On Mon, Apr 11, 2011 at 10:05 AM, John E Clifford > wrote: > > Taking all that into account is {va'o lonu mi ponse lo dalpe'o dinsauru} > "Since > > I have a pet dinosaur" or is it merely indeterminate as to the truth of > the > > condition? > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ---- > > From: Remo Dentato > > To: lojban@googlegroups.com > > Cc: Michael Turniansky > > Sent: Mon, April 11, 2011 8:20:14 AM > > Subject: Re: [lojban] Regularization > > > > On Mon, Apr 11, 2011 at 2:49 PM, Michael Turniansky > > wrote: > >> Counterfactual meaning not as things are, but as they might be. So, > >> for example "va'o lo nu lo snime cu carvi kei mi ma'ekla le birju"-> > >> "I drive to the office in the snow" ("in the situation of it snowing, > >> I drive to the office") "va'o da'i lo nu lo snime cu carvi kei mi > >> ma'ekla le birju" -> "if it snows, I will drive to the office". ("in > >> the theoretical situation of it snowing, I drive to the office") > >> Clearer? > > > > A little bit. I guess that in the translation of "if I had a pet > dinosaur" > > > > http://www.lojban.org/tiki/tiki-download_wiki_attachment.php?attId=784 > > > > Instead of {va'o lonu mi ponse lo dalpe'o dinsauru}) I should have > > used {va'o da'i lonu mi ponse > > lo dalpe'o dinsauru} > > > > -- > > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > > "lojban" group. > > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > > lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > > For more options, visit this group at > > http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. > > > > > > > > > > -- > > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "lojban" group. > > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. > > > > > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "lojban" group. > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. > > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. --0015174c3f6eda50e604a0a56c1b Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable That's a good point. =A0If I say {mi citka ba lo nu mi xagji} it is pos= sible that there is causality baked in just via the fact that I'm stati= ng that the bridi {mi citka ba lo nu mi xagji} is true and NOT NECESSARILY = that {mi citka} is true. =A0I wasn't asking specifically about {ri'= a} vs {mu'i} vs etc... I was just asking if there was a causal connecti= on between the two pieces. =A0It very well COULD be that {mi citka ba lo nu= mi xagji} and that {mi citka} and {mi xagji} only happen to come one after= the other. =A0{mi klama lo zdani ba lo nu mi pilno lo skami} doesn't n= ecessarily imply anything other than "after I used the computer, I wen= t home". =A0No mu'i, ri'a, ni'i, etc... in that.

(also, I think you ciska in lojban. =A0If you're nu citk= a bau la lojban then your mom didn't teach you very good table manners = =3Dp )

On Mon, Apr 11, 2011 at 10:18 AM, = Michael Turniansky <mturniansky@gmail.com> wrote:
=A0I would argue (and my opinion isn't= necessarily the "one true way",
mind you) that yeah it makes a factual claim, as does the main bridi.
(Although I might simply phrase it "Having a pet dinosaur,...." (= e.g.
"... I go through a lot of Bronto Chow in week") =A0In other word= s, I
contend that with all BAI/FI'O constructions, you are making a factual<= br> claim. =A0"Mi citka bau la lojban" I am not just claiming that I = write,
but I'm writing in lojban. =A0Without the lojban part, the sentence jus= t
isn't true. =A0If I say "mi gunka ki'u lo nu mi nitcu lo jdini= ", if I
don't need the money, the bridi is not true. =A0I am asserting "mi= gunka
.ije mi nitcu lo jdini". =A0"va'" is no different in thi= s regard.
=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0--gejyspa


On Mon, Apr 11, 2011 at 10:05 AM, John E Clifford <kali9putra@yahoo.com> wrote:
> Taking all that into account is {va'o lonu mi ponse lo dalpe'o= dinsauru} "Since
> I have a pet dinosaur" or is it merely indeterminate as to the tr= uth of the
> condition?
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message ----
> From: Remo Dentato <rdentato@= gmail.com>
> To: lojban@googlegroups.com=
> Cc: Michael Turniansky <mt= urniansky@gmail.com>
> Sent: Mon, April 11, 2011 8:20:14 AM
> Subject: Re: [lojban] Regularization
>
> On Mon, Apr 11, 2011 at 2:49 PM, Michael Turniansky
> <mturniansky@gmail.com= > wrote:
>> =A0Counterfactual meaning not as things are, but as they might be.= =A0So,
>> for example "va'o lo nu lo snime cu carvi kei mi ma'e= kla le birju"->
>> "I drive to the office in the snow" ("in the situat= ion of it snowing,
>> I drive to the office") =A0"va'o da'i lo nu lo s= nime cu carvi kei mi
>> ma'ekla le birju" -> "if it snows, I will drive t= o the office". =A0("in
>> the theoretical situation of it snowing, I drive to the office&quo= t;)
>> =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0Clearer?
>
> A little bit. I guess that in the translation of "if I had a pet = dinosaur"
>
> http://www.lojban.org/tiki/tiki-download_w= iki_attachment.php?attId=3D784
>
> Instead of {va'o lonu mi ponse lo dalpe'o dinsauru}) I should = have
> used {va'o da'i lonu mi ponse
> lo dalpe'o dinsauru}
>
> --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Gro= ups
> "lojban" group.
> To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to
> lojban+unsubs= cribe@googlegroups.com.
> For more options, visit this group at
> http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den.
>
>
>
>
> --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Gro= ups "lojban" group.
> To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/= lojban?hl=3Den.
>
>

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