From lojban+bncCOib25n_BhDMsoztBBoELJV-9A@googlegroups.com Mon Apr 11 08:08:14 2011 Received: from mail-gw0-f61.google.com ([74.125.83.61]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1Q9Iio-0001ar-7R; Mon, 11 Apr 2011 08:08:14 -0700 Received: by gwb11 with SMTP id 11sf9992367gwb.16 for ; Mon, 11 Apr 2011 08:08:04 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version :in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to:cc :x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:x-google-group-id:list-post :list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe :content-type; bh=wyBd021fneIbbpp4YWI8/4Bj/OzcizXPpzthP5gAlPw=; b=5lMp8OUCwHTMyphjLO1ExXsF0SslQBtetNTkJGG8Os2hYq9cktzkNcWdM5f4ArJNsX pyOT24QpVyP+9JAGTRxnVX8MiSjLRFzwioFibBnDy5O1hl75UfoMOsqgD7hv8fGf5OOD TnNSHWEcRVBsP+3rtdksD8mPPx7Wc0uSUC7Sk= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date :message-id:subject:from:to:cc:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:x-google-group-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender :list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; b=gWJ8S5OV/FjJKOcc/fHIr/4TbWY+CC5f5KPccsWlnKYTMIQZ1XFD/MGJos1WMgSSv1 A63kAfbTvbW3B+jtCwUprnYXZ2PhVcnlWFdCP/+JHfdQCbwXTgHTG1k6Wt2NxgrBpA2I 61aAeeyvDv294I67PXoqbAPsGL8z93bqUp20E= Received: by 10.91.29.13 with SMTP id g13mr125940agj.46.1302534476896; Mon, 11 Apr 2011 08:07:56 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.231.8.234 with SMTP id i42ls6035155ibi.3.p; Mon, 11 Apr 2011 08:07:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.43.56.148 with SMTP id wc20mr1268323icb.45.1302534476044; Mon, 11 Apr 2011 08:07:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.43.56.148 with SMTP id wc20mr1268322icb.45.1302534476028; Mon, 11 Apr 2011 08:07:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-iy0-f170.google.com (mail-iy0-f170.google.com [209.85.210.170]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id xk8si879875icb.1.2011.04.11.08.07.55 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Mon, 11 Apr 2011 08:07:55 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of rpglover64@gmail.com designates 209.85.210.170 as permitted sender) client-ip=209.85.210.170; Received: by iyb12 with SMTP id 12so7009474iyb.29 for ; Mon, 11 Apr 2011 08:07:55 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.43.54.142 with SMTP id vu14mr7784218icb.384.1302534474646; Mon, 11 Apr 2011 08:07:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.42.175.201 with HTTP; Mon, 11 Apr 2011 08:07:54 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: <759730.3522.qm@web81303.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Date: Mon, 11 Apr 2011 11:07:54 -0400 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban] Regularization From: Alex Rozenshteyn To: lojban@googlegroups.com Cc: Luke Bergen X-Original-Sender: rpglover64@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of rpglover64@gmail.com designates 209.85.210.170 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=rpglover64@gmail.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=bcaec51ddb6dab475904a0a5f091 --bcaec51ddb6dab475904a0a5f091 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 If {va'o} and {va'o da'i} are not the way to do it, how else would one translate a natlang "if"? It seems that lojban's logical connectives are too narrow in scope for the purpose. Furthermore, it seems odd to me that while place , time ({pu}, {ca}, {ba}), potentiality {{ca'a}, {ka'e}, etc), and contour/aspect can all be inferred from context (at least as I understood the CLL), factuallity vs counterfactuallity cannot: if the statement {ta jelca} can mean either "that is on fire" or "that is flammable", why can't {ta jelca va'o lo mutce glare} be read as counterfactual? On Mon, Apr 11, 2011 at 10:30 AM, Luke Bergen wrote: > That's a good point. If I say {mi citka ba lo nu mi xagji} it is possible > that there is causality baked in just via the fact that I'm stating that the > bridi {mi citka ba lo nu mi xagji} is true and NOT NECESSARILY that {mi > citka} is true. I wasn't asking specifically about {ri'a} vs {mu'i} vs > etc... I was just asking if there was a causal connection between the two > pieces. It very well COULD be that {mi citka ba lo nu mi xagji} and that > {mi citka} and {mi xagji} only happen to come one after the other. {mi > klama lo zdani ba lo nu mi pilno lo skami} doesn't necessarily imply > anything other than "after I used the computer, I went home". No mu'i, > ri'a, ni'i, etc... in that. > > (also, I think you ciska in lojban. If you're nu citka bau la lojban then > your mom didn't teach you very good table manners =p ) > > > On Mon, Apr 11, 2011 at 10:18 AM, Michael Turniansky < > mturniansky@gmail.com> wrote: > >> I would argue (and my opinion isn't necessarily the "one true way", >> mind you) that yeah it makes a factual claim, as does the main bridi. >> (Although I might simply phrase it "Having a pet dinosaur,...." (e.g. >> "... I go through a lot of Bronto Chow in week") In other words, I >> contend that with all BAI/FI'O constructions, you are making a factual >> claim. "Mi citka bau la lojban" I am not just claiming that I write, >> but I'm writing in lojban. Without the lojban part, the sentence just >> isn't true. If I say "mi gunka ki'u lo nu mi nitcu lo jdini", if I >> don't need the money, the bridi is not true. I am asserting "mi gunka >> .ije mi nitcu lo jdini". "va'" is no different in this regard. >> --gejyspa >> >> >> On Mon, Apr 11, 2011 at 10:05 AM, John E Clifford >> wrote: >> > Taking all that into account is {va'o lonu mi ponse lo dalpe'o dinsauru} >> "Since >> > I have a pet dinosaur" or is it merely indeterminate as to the truth of >> the >> > condition? >> > >> > >> > >> > ----- Original Message ---- >> > From: Remo Dentato >> > To: lojban@googlegroups.com >> > Cc: Michael Turniansky >> > Sent: Mon, April 11, 2011 8:20:14 AM >> > Subject: Re: [lojban] Regularization >> > >> > On Mon, Apr 11, 2011 at 2:49 PM, Michael Turniansky >> > wrote: >> >> Counterfactual meaning not as things are, but as they might be. So, >> >> for example "va'o lo nu lo snime cu carvi kei mi ma'ekla le birju"-> >> >> "I drive to the office in the snow" ("in the situation of it snowing, >> >> I drive to the office") "va'o da'i lo nu lo snime cu carvi kei mi >> >> ma'ekla le birju" -> "if it snows, I will drive to the office". ("in >> >> the theoretical situation of it snowing, I drive to the office") >> >> Clearer? >> > >> > A little bit. I guess that in the translation of "if I had a pet >> dinosaur" >> > >> > http://www.lojban.org/tiki/tiki-download_wiki_attachment.php?attId=784 >> > >> > Instead of {va'o lonu mi ponse lo dalpe'o dinsauru}) I should have >> > used {va'o da'i lonu mi ponse >> > lo dalpe'o dinsauru} >> > >> > -- >> > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >> Groups >> > "lojban" group. >> > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. >> > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >> > lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. >> > For more options, visit this group at >> > http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > -- >> > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >> Groups "lojban" group. >> > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. >> > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >> lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. >> > For more options, visit this group at >> http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. >> > >> > >> >> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >> "lojban" group. >> To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. >> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >> lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. >> For more options, visit this group at >> http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. >> >> > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "lojban" group. > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. > -- Alex R -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. --bcaec51ddb6dab475904a0a5f091 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable If {va'o} and {va'o da'i} are not the way to do it, how else wo= uld one translate a natlang "if"?=A0 It seems that lojban's l= ogical connectives are too narrow in scope for the purpose.

Furtherm= ore, it seems odd to me that while place , time ({pu}, {ca}, {ba}), potenti= ality {{ca'a}, {ka'e}, etc), and contour/aspect can all be inferred= from context (at least as I understood the CLL), factuallity vs counterfac= tuallity cannot:=A0 if the statement {ta jelca} can mean either "that = is on fire" or "that is flammable", why can't {ta jelca = va'o lo mutce glare} be read as counterfactual?

On Mon, Apr 11, 2011 at 10:30 AM, Luke Berge= n <lukeaberge= n@gmail.com> wrote:
That's a good point. =A0If I say {mi citka ba lo nu mi xagji} it is pos= sible that there is causality baked in just via the fact that I'm stati= ng that the bridi {mi citka ba lo nu mi xagji} is true and NOT NECESSARILY = that {mi citka} is true. =A0I wasn't asking specifically about {ri'= a} vs {mu'i} vs etc... I was just asking if there was a causal connecti= on between the two pieces. =A0It very well COULD be that {mi citka ba lo nu= mi xagji} and that {mi citka} and {mi xagji} only happen to come one after= the other. =A0{mi klama lo zdani ba lo nu mi pilno lo skami} doesn't n= ecessarily imply anything other than "after I used the computer, I wen= t home". =A0No mu'i, ri'a, ni'i, etc... in that.

(also, I think you ciska in lojban. =A0If you're nu citk= a bau la lojban then your mom didn't teach you very good table manners = =3Dp )


= On Mon, Apr 11, 2011 at 10:18 AM, Michael Turniansky <= mturniansky@gmai= l.com> wrote:
=A0I would argue (and my opinion isn't = necessarily the "one true way",
mind you) that yeah it makes a factual claim, as does the main bridi.
(Although I might simply phrase it "Having a pet dinosaur,...." (= e.g.
"... I go through a lot of Bronto Chow in week") =A0In other word= s, I
contend that with all BAI/FI'O constructions, you are making a factual<= br> claim. =A0"Mi citka bau la lojban" I am not just claiming that I = write,
but I'm writing in lojban. =A0Without the lojban part, the sentence jus= t
isn't true. =A0If I say "mi gunka ki'u lo nu mi nitcu lo jdini= ", if I
don't need the money, the bridi is not true. =A0I am asserting "mi= gunka
.ije mi nitcu lo jdini". =A0"va'" is no different in thi= s regard.
=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0--gejyspa


On Mon, Apr 11, 2011 at 10:05 AM, John E Clifford <kali9putra@yahoo.com> wrote: > Taking all that into account is {va'o lonu mi ponse lo dalpe'o= dinsauru} "Since
> I have a pet dinosaur" or is it merely indeterminate as to the tr= uth of the
> condition?
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message ----
> From: Remo Dentato <rdentato@gmail.com>
> To: lojba= n@googlegroups.com
> Cc: Michael Turniansky <mturniansky@gmail.com>
> Sent: Mon, April 11, 2011 8:20:14 AM
> Subject: Re: [lojban] Regularization
>
> On Mon, Apr 11, 2011 at 2:49 PM, Michael Turniansky
> <mturnia= nsky@gmail.com> wrote:
>> =A0Counterfactual meaning not as things are, but as they might be.= =A0So,
>> for example "va'o lo nu lo snime cu carvi kei mi ma'e= kla le birju"->
>> "I drive to the office in the snow" ("in the situat= ion of it snowing,
>> I drive to the office") =A0"va'o da'i lo nu lo s= nime cu carvi kei mi
>> ma'ekla le birju" -> "if it snows, I will drive t= o the office". =A0("in
>> the theoretical situation of it snowing, I drive to the office&quo= t;)
>> =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0Clearer?
>
> A little bit. I guess that in the translation of "if I had a pet = dinosaur"
>
> http://www.lojban.org/tiki/tiki-download_w= iki_attachment.php?attId=3D784
>
> Instead of {va'o lonu mi ponse lo dalpe'o dinsauru}) I should = have
> used {va'o da'i lonu mi ponse
> lo dalpe'o dinsauru}
>
> --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Gro= ups
> "lojban" group.
> To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to
> lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
> For more options, visit this group at
> http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den.
>
>
>
>
> --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Gro= ups "lojban" group.
> To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googl= egroups.com.
> For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/= lojban?hl=3Den.
>
>

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--
=A0=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0Alex R

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