From lojban+bncCMHEmaCOBhCSvoztBBoEIHgnew@googlegroups.com Mon Apr 11 08:32:54 2011 Received: from mail-fx0-f61.google.com ([209.85.161.61]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1Q9J6e-00016C-Tp; Mon, 11 Apr 2011 08:32:54 -0700 Received: by fxm14 with SMTP id 14sf5346150fxm.16 for ; Mon, 11 Apr 2011 08:32:41 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version :in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:x-google-group-id:list-post :list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe :content-type; bh=BwpjpzziikOvBs6KGbpzZyuMUXjtdrsSYcefOLeV/fA=; b=wiX4XQsrJ2IkBXX2S+7mBiBtqSLQqO8tgC4eOAIAQaZZ7N+SRTpbRypxGd0LoFA6Dq G+9KjMVRi2WqMCBBVPa1ga24kkFE1Ef4CUxeel84La2Fma9gODCxRhR50Rv+FwUs7sEw jqFphgusp6i8GC0ncaG4JFuhTEaKNWNk3oFEY= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date :message-id:subject:from:to:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:x-google-group-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender :list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; b=LSzs9j6paQMaBxDTnAWysyeKWK4GLhbqYYMqE95vrKlC48Haxi5iNkSp1yz/noYMj/ nQFnL+Dwl6ScR7U0gks1/0t9OQfIpHBDCua3qfa9BAR8Q9idKk1noDWC+uIOQLnE86h2 1wol7bQzAFUTPLDCWps/sjEXj7oPnOk+lzVMI= Received: by 10.223.55.213 with SMTP id v21mr1032896fag.45.1302535954446; Mon, 11 Apr 2011 08:32:34 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.204.35.21 with SMTP id n21ls2201265bkd.1.p; Mon, 11 Apr 2011 08:32:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.204.117.138 with SMTP id r10mr670047bkq.5.1302535953283; Mon, 11 Apr 2011 08:32:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.204.117.138 with SMTP id r10mr670046bkq.5.1302535953242; Mon, 11 Apr 2011 08:32:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-bw0-f42.google.com (mail-bw0-f42.google.com [209.85.214.42]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id j10si1008588bka.0.2011.04.11.08.32.33 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Mon, 11 Apr 2011 08:32:33 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of eyeonus@gmail.com designates 209.85.214.42 as permitted sender) client-ip=209.85.214.42; Received: by mail-bw0-f42.google.com with SMTP id 18so5040437bwz.29 for ; Mon, 11 Apr 2011 08:32:33 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.204.22.204 with SMTP id o12mr2132066bkb.76.1302535952970; Mon, 11 Apr 2011 08:32:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.204.116.147 with HTTP; Mon, 11 Apr 2011 08:32:32 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: <759730.3522.qm@web81303.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Date: Mon, 11 Apr 2011 09:32:32 -0600 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban] Regularization From: Jonathan Jones To: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Original-Sender: eyeonus@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of eyeonus@gmail.com designates 209.85.214.42 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=eyeonus@gmail.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=00032555a2b6c8b3a404a0a648cd --00032555a2b6c8b3a404a0a648cd Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 I think it can be, if {ta na mutce glare}. On Mon, Apr 11, 2011 at 9:07 AM, Alex Rozenshteyn wrote: > If {va'o} and {va'o da'i} are not the way to do it, how else would one > translate a natlang "if"? It seems that lojban's logical connectives are > too narrow in scope for the purpose. > > Furthermore, it seems odd to me that while place , time ({pu}, {ca}, {ba}), > potentiality {{ca'a}, {ka'e}, etc), and contour/aspect can all be inferred > from context (at least as I understood the CLL), factuallity vs > counterfactuallity cannot: if the statement {ta jelca} can mean either > "that is on fire" or "that is flammable", why can't {ta jelca va'o lo mutce > glare} be read as counterfactual? > > > On Mon, Apr 11, 2011 at 10:30 AM, Luke Bergen wrote: > >> That's a good point. If I say {mi citka ba lo nu mi xagji} it is possible >> that there is causality baked in just via the fact that I'm stating that the >> bridi {mi citka ba lo nu mi xagji} is true and NOT NECESSARILY that {mi >> citka} is true. I wasn't asking specifically about {ri'a} vs {mu'i} vs >> etc... I was just asking if there was a causal connection between the two >> pieces. It very well COULD be that {mi citka ba lo nu mi xagji} and that >> {mi citka} and {mi xagji} only happen to come one after the other. {mi >> klama lo zdani ba lo nu mi pilno lo skami} doesn't necessarily imply >> anything other than "after I used the computer, I went home". No mu'i, >> ri'a, ni'i, etc... in that. >> >> (also, I think you ciska in lojban. If you're nu citka bau la lojban then >> your mom didn't teach you very good table manners =p ) >> >> >> On Mon, Apr 11, 2011 at 10:18 AM, Michael Turniansky < >> mturniansky@gmail.com> wrote: >> >>> I would argue (and my opinion isn't necessarily the "one true way", >>> mind you) that yeah it makes a factual claim, as does the main bridi. >>> (Although I might simply phrase it "Having a pet dinosaur,...." (e.g. >>> "... I go through a lot of Bronto Chow in week") In other words, I >>> contend that with all BAI/FI'O constructions, you are making a factual >>> claim. "Mi citka bau la lojban" I am not just claiming that I write, >>> but I'm writing in lojban. Without the lojban part, the sentence just >>> isn't true. If I say "mi gunka ki'u lo nu mi nitcu lo jdini", if I >>> don't need the money, the bridi is not true. I am asserting "mi gunka >>> .ije mi nitcu lo jdini". "va'" is no different in this regard. >>> --gejyspa >>> >>> >>> On Mon, Apr 11, 2011 at 10:05 AM, John E Clifford >>> wrote: >>> > Taking all that into account is {va'o lonu mi ponse lo dalpe'o >>> dinsauru} "Since >>> > I have a pet dinosaur" or is it merely indeterminate as to the truth of >>> the >>> > condition? >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > ----- Original Message ---- >>> > From: Remo Dentato >>> > To: lojban@googlegroups.com >>> > Cc: Michael Turniansky >>> > Sent: Mon, April 11, 2011 8:20:14 AM >>> > Subject: Re: [lojban] Regularization >>> > >>> > On Mon, Apr 11, 2011 at 2:49 PM, Michael Turniansky >>> > wrote: >>> >> Counterfactual meaning not as things are, but as they might be. So, >>> >> for example "va'o lo nu lo snime cu carvi kei mi ma'ekla le birju"-> >>> >> "I drive to the office in the snow" ("in the situation of it snowing, >>> >> I drive to the office") "va'o da'i lo nu lo snime cu carvi kei mi >>> >> ma'ekla le birju" -> "if it snows, I will drive to the office". ("in >>> >> the theoretical situation of it snowing, I drive to the office") >>> >> Clearer? >>> > >>> > A little bit. I guess that in the translation of "if I had a pet >>> dinosaur" >>> > >>> > http://www.lojban.org/tiki/tiki-download_wiki_attachment.php?attId=784 >>> > >>> > Instead of {va'o lonu mi ponse lo dalpe'o dinsauru}) I should have >>> > used {va'o da'i lonu mi ponse >>> > lo dalpe'o dinsauru} >>> > >>> > -- >>> > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>> Groups >>> > "lojban" group. >>> > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. >>> > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >>> > lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. >>> > For more options, visit this group at >>> > http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > -- >>> > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>> Groups "lojban" group. >>> > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. >>> > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >>> lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. >>> > For more options, visit this group at >>> http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. >>> > >>> > >>> >>> -- >>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >>> "lojban" group. >>> To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. >>> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >>> lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. >>> For more options, visit this group at >>> http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. >>> >>> >> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >> "lojban" group. >> To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. >> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >> lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. >> For more options, visit this group at >> http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. >> > > > > -- > Alex R > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "lojban" group. > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. > -- mu'o mi'e .aionys. .i.a'o.e'e ko cmima le bende pe lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do zo'o (Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D ) -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. --00032555a2b6c8b3a404a0a648cd Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I think it can be, if {ta na mutce glare}.

On Mon, Apr 11, 2011 at 9:07 AM, Alex Rozenshteyn <<= a href=3D"mailto:rpglover64@gmail.com">rpglover64@gmail.com> = wrote:
If {va'o} and {va'o da'i} are n= ot the way to do it, how else would one translate a natlang "if"?= =A0 It seems that lojban's logical connectives are too narrow in scope = for the purpose.

Furthermore, it seems odd to me that while place , time ({pu}, {ca}, {b= a}), potentiality {{ca'a}, {ka'e}, etc), and contour/aspect can all= be inferred from context (at least as I understood the CLL), factuallity v= s counterfactuallity cannot:=A0 if the statement {ta jelca} can mean either= "that is on fire" or "that is flammable", why can'= t {ta jelca va'o lo mutce glare} be read as counterfactual?


On Mon, Apr 11, 2011 at 10:30 AM, Luke Berge= n <lukeabergen@gmail.com> wrote:
That's a good point. =A0If I say {mi citka ba lo nu mi xagji} it is pos= sible that there is causality baked in just via the fact that I'm stati= ng that the bridi {mi citka ba lo nu mi xagji} is true and NOT NECESSARILY = that {mi citka} is true. =A0I wasn't asking specifically about {ri'= a} vs {mu'i} vs etc... I was just asking if there was a causal connecti= on between the two pieces. =A0It very well COULD be that {mi citka ba lo nu= mi xagji} and that {mi citka} and {mi xagji} only happen to come one after= the other. =A0{mi klama lo zdani ba lo nu mi pilno lo skami} doesn't n= ecessarily imply anything other than "after I used the computer, I wen= t home". =A0No mu'i, ri'a, ni'i, etc... in that.

(also, I think you ciska in lojban. =A0If you're nu citk= a bau la lojban then your mom didn't teach you very good table manners = =3Dp )


On Mon, Apr 1= 1, 2011 at 10:18 AM, Michael Turniansky <mturniansky@gmail.com>= wrote:
=A0I would argue (and my opinion isn't = necessarily the "one true way",
mind you) that yeah it makes a factual claim, as does the main bridi.
(Although I might simply phrase it "Having a pet dinosaur,...." (= e.g.
"... I go through a lot of Bronto Chow in week") =A0In other word= s, I
contend that with all BAI/FI'O constructions, you are making a factual<= br> claim. =A0"Mi citka bau la lojban" I am not just claiming that I = write,
but I'm writing in lojban. =A0Without the lojban part, the sentence jus= t
isn't true. =A0If I say "mi gunka ki'u lo nu mi nitcu lo jdini= ", if I
don't need the money, the bridi is not true. =A0I am asserting "mi= gunka
.ije mi nitcu lo jdini". =A0"va'" is no different in thi= s regard.
=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0--gejyspa


On Mon, Apr 11, 2011 at 10:05 AM, John E Clifford <kali9putra@yahoo.com> wrote: > Taking all that into account is {va'o lonu mi ponse lo dalpe'o= dinsauru} "Since
> I have a pet dinosaur" or is it merely indeterminate as to the tr= uth of the
> condition?
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message ----
> From: Remo Dentato <rdentato@gmail.com>
> To: lojba= n@googlegroups.com
> Cc: Michael Turniansky <mturniansky@gmail.com>
> Sent: Mon, April 11, 2011 8:20:14 AM
> Subject: Re: [lojban] Regularization
>
> On Mon, Apr 11, 2011 at 2:49 PM, Michael Turniansky
> <mturnia= nsky@gmail.com> wrote:
>> =A0Counterfactual meaning not as things are, but as they might be.= =A0So,
>> for example "va'o lo nu lo snime cu carvi kei mi ma'e= kla le birju"->
>> "I drive to the office in the snow" ("in the situat= ion of it snowing,
>> I drive to the office") =A0"va'o da'i lo nu lo s= nime cu carvi kei mi
>> ma'ekla le birju" -> "if it snows, I will drive t= o the office". =A0("in
>> the theoretical situation of it snowing, I drive to the office&quo= t;)
>> =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0Clearer?
>
> A little bit. I guess that in the translation of "if I had a pet = dinosaur"
>
> http://www.lojban.org/tiki/tiki-download_w= iki_attachment.php?attId=3D784
>
> Instead of {va'o lonu mi ponse lo dalpe'o dinsauru}) I should = have
> used {va'o da'i lonu mi ponse
> lo dalpe'o dinsauru}
>
> --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Gro= ups
> "lojban" group.
> To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to
> lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
> For more options, visit this group at
> http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den.
>
>
>
>
> --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Gro= ups "lojban" group.
> To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googl= egroups.com.
> For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/= lojban?hl=3Den.
>
>

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--
=A0=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0Alex R

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--
mu'o mi= 'e .aionys.

.i.a'o.e'e ko cmima le bende pe lo pilno be = denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do zo'o
(Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I= am your father. :D )

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