From lojban+bncCOjSjrXVGBCvvYztBBoE8AtVqA@googlegroups.com Mon Apr 11 08:35:16 2011 Received: from mail-ew0-f61.google.com ([209.85.215.61]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1Q9J8v-000193-8V; Mon, 11 Apr 2011 08:35:16 -0700 Received: by ewy5 with SMTP id 5sf633429ewy.16 for ; Mon, 11 Apr 2011 08:35:02 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version :in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:x-google-group-id:list-post :list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe :content-type; bh=uDXorQxQUrc/S6lKH6oP6/3ZoXHLRpPM2qm2p0+/Hu8=; b=39BpnuP4YleoZHg073iUvWOA3S949gUs/maxxYNs8ZfuprJZ4P7yiI+pX34XtYZhnx lCYQ/Qlz0V2mvgH0cgwBkWZ1nuElsrF7OjGcvn1Z+lw47jd7w7/7KwujREHEThUUtpnJ GqBu+HUU8ns0Xse7DRrZ/2ELNJPBTMN3zyi7w= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from :date:message-id:subject:to:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:x-google-group-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender :list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; b=sKg3/KJ4CM5SrP7LT/u3oAkGtF2WZQbRW3sE9r9NmWVtMb0lTAIhHZWl5poGeAwkbx A7HLeqjxoVjYeLEuKw2GTT2l5qfKGMNXCExSxBQealGLDg+caoddsMkDm2xI05EcDBS4 n4qlYSf4vRy3YJ+nAW0fwpASDXcwM68DOLsO4= Received: by 10.213.2.65 with SMTP id 1mr1610712ebi.0.1302535855970; Mon, 11 Apr 2011 08:30:55 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.14.11.92 with SMTP id 68ls507205eew.4.p; Mon, 11 Apr 2011 08:30:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.14.123.135 with SMTP id v7mr572418eeh.14.1302535854576; Mon, 11 Apr 2011 08:30:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.14.123.135 with SMTP id v7mr572417eeh.14.1302535854550; Mon, 11 Apr 2011 08:30:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-ey0-f174.google.com (mail-ey0-f174.google.com [209.85.215.174]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id w60si1868502eew.6.2011.04.11.08.30.53 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Mon, 11 Apr 2011 08:30:53 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of lukeabergen@gmail.com designates 209.85.215.174 as permitted sender) client-ip=209.85.215.174; Received: by mail-ey0-f174.google.com with SMTP id 24so2239561eyx.33 for ; Mon, 11 Apr 2011 08:30:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.213.113.140 with SMTP id a12mr1083296ebq.98.1302535853205; Mon, 11 Apr 2011 08:30:53 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.213.33.75 with HTTP; Mon, 11 Apr 2011 08:30:33 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: <759730.3522.qm@web81303.mail.mud.yahoo.com> From: Luke Bergen Date: Mon, 11 Apr 2011 11:30:33 -0400 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban] Regularization To: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Original-Sender: lukeabergen@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of lukeabergen@gmail.com designates 209.85.215.174 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=lukeabergen@gmail.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=0015174c3e16d66a3c04a0a642eb --0015174c3e16d66a3c04a0a642eb Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 You ask very good questions Alex. I have a gut feeling like the answer is going to come from the oldbies as something like "because lojban is a logical language and some easily-understood-by-human type ideas like causality are not necessarily easy to express in lojban" or "if you want to do a natlang 'if' then use {rinka}, {mukti} or {nibli}". At the end of the day, the concept of the natlang 'if' is too dang handy and I'll continue interpreting {va'o da'i lo nu lenku kei mi dasni lo kosta} as "if it's cold out, I'll wear a coat". I might wear a coat anyway, and it might not be cold out at all. Additionally, I reserve the right to not wear a coat even if it IS cold out. Heck, I'd probably even interpret it the same even without the {da'i}. Since tense isn't specified, the bridi could be talking about the future as in "in the future, it will be cold out so I'll wear a coat". Also, {ja'e} is handy but I don't see it used as often as {va'o}, {mu'i}, etc... On Mon, Apr 11, 2011 at 11:07 AM, Alex Rozenshteyn wrote: > If {va'o} and {va'o da'i} are not the way to do it, how else would one > translate a natlang "if"? It seems that lojban's logical connectives are > too narrow in scope for the purpose. > > Furthermore, it seems odd to me that while place , time ({pu}, {ca}, {ba}), > potentiality {{ca'a}, {ka'e}, etc), and contour/aspect can all be inferred > from context (at least as I understood the CLL), factuallity vs > counterfactuallity cannot: if the statement {ta jelca} can mean either > "that is on fire" or "that is flammable", why can't {ta jelca va'o lo mutce > glare} be read as counterfactual? > > On Mon, Apr 11, 2011 at 10:30 AM, Luke Bergen wrote: > >> That's a good point. If I say {mi citka ba lo nu mi xagji} it is possible >> that there is causality baked in just via the fact that I'm stating that the >> bridi {mi citka ba lo nu mi xagji} is true and NOT NECESSARILY that {mi >> citka} is true. I wasn't asking specifically about {ri'a} vs {mu'i} vs >> etc... I was just asking if there was a causal connection between the two >> pieces. It very well COULD be that {mi citka ba lo nu mi xagji} and that >> {mi citka} and {mi xagji} only happen to come one after the other. {mi >> klama lo zdani ba lo nu mi pilno lo skami} doesn't necessarily imply >> anything other than "after I used the computer, I went home". No mu'i, >> ri'a, ni'i, etc... in that. >> >> (also, I think you ciska in lojban. If you're nu citka bau la lojban then >> your mom didn't teach you very good table manners =p ) >> >> >> On Mon, Apr 11, 2011 at 10:18 AM, Michael Turniansky < >> mturniansky@gmail.com> wrote: >> >>> I would argue (and my opinion isn't necessarily the "one true way", >>> mind you) that yeah it makes a factual claim, as does the main bridi. >>> (Although I might simply phrase it "Having a pet dinosaur,...." (e.g. >>> "... I go through a lot of Bronto Chow in week") In other words, I >>> contend that with all BAI/FI'O constructions, you are making a factual >>> claim. "Mi citka bau la lojban" I am not just claiming that I write, >>> but I'm writing in lojban. Without the lojban part, the sentence just >>> isn't true. If I say "mi gunka ki'u lo nu mi nitcu lo jdini", if I >>> don't need the money, the bridi is not true. I am asserting "mi gunka >>> .ije mi nitcu lo jdini". "va'" is no different in this regard. >>> --gejyspa >>> >>> >>> On Mon, Apr 11, 2011 at 10:05 AM, John E Clifford >>> wrote: >>> > Taking all that into account is {va'o lonu mi ponse lo dalpe'o >>> dinsauru} "Since >>> > I have a pet dinosaur" or is it merely indeterminate as to the truth of >>> the >>> > condition? >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > ----- Original Message ---- >>> > From: Remo Dentato >>> > To: lojban@googlegroups.com >>> > Cc: Michael Turniansky >>> > Sent: Mon, April 11, 2011 8:20:14 AM >>> > Subject: Re: [lojban] Regularization >>> > >>> > On Mon, Apr 11, 2011 at 2:49 PM, Michael Turniansky >>> > wrote: >>> >> Counterfactual meaning not as things are, but as they might be. So, >>> >> for example "va'o lo nu lo snime cu carvi kei mi ma'ekla le birju"-> >>> >> "I drive to the office in the snow" ("in the situation of it snowing, >>> >> I drive to the office") "va'o da'i lo nu lo snime cu carvi kei mi >>> >> ma'ekla le birju" -> "if it snows, I will drive to the office". ("in >>> >> the theoretical situation of it snowing, I drive to the office") >>> >> Clearer? >>> > >>> > A little bit. I guess that in the translation of "if I had a pet >>> dinosaur" >>> > >>> > http://www.lojban.org/tiki/tiki-download_wiki_attachment.php?attId=784 >>> > >>> > Instead of {va'o lonu mi ponse lo dalpe'o dinsauru}) I should have >>> > used {va'o da'i lonu mi ponse >>> > lo dalpe'o dinsauru} >>> > >>> > -- >>> > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>> Groups >>> > "lojban" group. >>> > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. >>> > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >>> > lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. >>> > For more options, visit this group at >>> > http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > -- >>> > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>> Groups "lojban" group. >>> > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. >>> > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >>> lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. >>> > For more options, visit this group at >>> http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. >>> > >>> > >>> >>> -- >>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >>> "lojban" group. >>> To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. >>> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >>> lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. >>> For more options, visit this group at >>> http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. >>> >>> >> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >> "lojban" group. >> To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. >> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >> lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. >> For more options, visit this group at >> http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. >> > > > > -- > Alex R > > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. --0015174c3e16d66a3c04a0a642eb Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable You ask very good questions Alex. =A0I have a gut feeling like the answer i= s going to come from the oldbies as something like "because lojban is = a logical language and some easily-understood-by-human type ideas like caus= ality are not necessarily easy to express in lojban" or "if you w= ant to do a natlang 'if' then use {rinka}, {mukti} or {nibli}"= .

At the end of the day, the concept of the natlang 'if= 9; is too dang handy and I'll continue interpreting {va'o da'i = lo nu lenku kei mi dasni lo kosta} as "if it's cold out, I'll = wear a coat". =A0I might wear a coat anyway, and it might not be cold = out at all. =A0Additionally, I reserve the right to not wear a coat even if= it IS cold out. =A0Heck, I'd probably even interpret it the same even = without the {da'i}. =A0Since tense isn't specified, the bridi could= be talking about the future as in "in the future, it will be cold out= so I'll wear a coat". =A0Also, {ja'e} is handy but I don'= t see it used as often as {va'o}, {mu'i}, etc...

On Mon, Apr 11, 2011 at 11:07 AM, Alex Rozen= shteyn <rpglov= er64@gmail.com> wrote:
If {va'o} and {va'o da'i} are not the way to do it, how else wo= uld one translate a natlang "if"?=A0 It seems that lojban's l= ogical connectives are too narrow in scope for the purpose.

Furtherm= ore, it seems odd to me that while place , time ({pu}, {ca}, {ba}), potenti= ality {{ca'a}, {ka'e}, etc), and contour/aspect can all be inferred= from context (at least as I understood the CLL), factuallity vs counterfac= tuallity cannot:=A0 if the statement {ta jelca} can mean either "that = is on fire" or "that is flammable", why can't {ta jelca = va'o lo mutce glare} be read as counterfactual?

On Mon, Ap= r 11, 2011 at 10:30 AM, Luke Bergen <lukeabergen@gmail.com> wrote:
That's a good point. =A0If I say {mi citka ba lo nu mi xagji} it is pos= sible that there is causality baked in just via the fact that I'm stati= ng that the bridi {mi citka ba lo nu mi xagji} is true and NOT NECESSARILY = that {mi citka} is true. =A0I wasn't asking specifically about {ri'= a} vs {mu'i} vs etc... I was just asking if there was a causal connecti= on between the two pieces. =A0It very well COULD be that {mi citka ba lo nu= mi xagji} and that {mi citka} and {mi xagji} only happen to come one after= the other. =A0{mi klama lo zdani ba lo nu mi pilno lo skami} doesn't n= ecessarily imply anything other than "after I used the computer, I wen= t home". =A0No mu'i, ri'a, ni'i, etc... in that.

(also, I think you ciska in lojban. =A0If you're nu citk= a bau la lojban then your mom didn't teach you very good table manners = =3Dp )


On Mon, Apr 1= 1, 2011 at 10:18 AM, Michael Turniansky <mturniansky@gmail.com>= wrote:
=A0I would argue (and my opinion isn't = necessarily the "one true way",
mind you) that yeah it makes a factual claim, as does the main bridi.
(Although I might simply phrase it "Having a pet dinosaur,...." (= e.g.
"... I go through a lot of Bronto Chow in week") =A0In other word= s, I
contend that with all BAI/FI'O constructions, you are making a factual<= br> claim. =A0"Mi citka bau la lojban" I am not just claiming that I = write,
but I'm writing in lojban. =A0Without the lojban part, the sentence jus= t
isn't true. =A0If I say "mi gunka ki'u lo nu mi nitcu lo jdini= ", if I
don't need the money, the bridi is not true. =A0I am asserting "mi= gunka
.ije mi nitcu lo jdini". =A0"va'" is no different in thi= s regard.
=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0--gejyspa


On Mon, Apr 11, 2011 at 10:05 AM, John E Clifford <kali9putra@yahoo.com> wrote: > Taking all that into account is {va'o lonu mi ponse lo dalpe'o= dinsauru} "Since
> I have a pet dinosaur" or is it merely indeterminate as to the tr= uth of the
> condition?
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message ----
> From: Remo Dentato <rdentato@gmail.com>
> To: lojba= n@googlegroups.com
> Cc: Michael Turniansky <mturniansky@gmail.com>
> Sent: Mon, April 11, 2011 8:20:14 AM
> Subject: Re: [lojban] Regularization
>
> On Mon, Apr 11, 2011 at 2:49 PM, Michael Turniansky
> <mturnia= nsky@gmail.com> wrote:
>> =A0Counterfactual meaning not as things are, but as they might be.= =A0So,
>> for example "va'o lo nu lo snime cu carvi kei mi ma'e= kla le birju"->
>> "I drive to the office in the snow" ("in the situat= ion of it snowing,
>> I drive to the office") =A0"va'o da'i lo nu lo s= nime cu carvi kei mi
>> ma'ekla le birju" -> "if it snows, I will drive t= o the office". =A0("in
>> the theoretical situation of it snowing, I drive to the office&quo= t;)
>> =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0Clearer?
>
> A little bit. I guess that in the translation of "if I had a pet = dinosaur"
>
> http://www.lojban.org/tiki/tiki-download_w= iki_attachment.php?attId=3D784
>
> Instead of {va'o lonu mi ponse lo dalpe'o dinsauru}) I should = have
> used {va'o da'i lonu mi ponse
> lo dalpe'o dinsauru}
>
> --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Gro= ups
> "lojban" group.
> To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to
> lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
> For more options, visit this group at
> http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den.
>
>
>
>
> --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Gro= ups "lojban" group.
> To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googl= egroups.com.
> For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/= lojban?hl=3Den.
>
>

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--
=A0=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0Alex R


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