From lojban+bncCOjSjrXVGBCh0IztBBoEAed0Ow@googlegroups.com Mon Apr 11 09:11:35 2011 Received: from mail-wy0-f189.google.com ([74.125.82.189]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1Q9Ji3-0001C8-MQ; Mon, 11 Apr 2011 09:11:34 -0700 Received: by wya21 with SMTP id 21sf5981306wya.16 for ; Mon, 11 Apr 2011 09:11:21 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version :in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:x-google-group-id:list-post :list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe :content-type; bh=ql1xEG444UP9mdOB0qlWyIild1iXuErusqfPeWAk7oM=; b=C9/BELlpJNVvoS5juAVip+r5oYl7uPiFwjHTVCFFQZi53N3sBnOgZawCcsZZJkf73T ib6b/YA52rvP5YyULTPca7S/NwYjCOX9kEBvV3ywAkC2jTCNt46IbQXbI1mYLUnIXJw7 T7jLiHk9ViVKuyyo6aw1vcl/bIsj1S7cyIa54= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from :date:message-id:subject:to:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:x-google-group-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender :list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; b=CAUjN/6NcIpXaO/uwTn4Wo8bLpG6FYMnW2KUSqnZbLaa7cg+uyWR/JfVI0xjvRN8kd 7ZrecCkejvUh182bdSn/8h6zOk5v3BvYcynWyqfBEmMAdgoYNXLFvH5DwGA/mQNe0Hqu LAJd46TsIW8km1wajlmS5yrFUZK525JOM8fQA= Received: by 10.216.241.66 with SMTP id f44mr626017wer.5.1302538273885; Mon, 11 Apr 2011 09:11:13 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.14.25.139 with SMTP id z11ls511314eez.0.p; Mon, 11 Apr 2011 09:11:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.14.2.25 with SMTP id 25mr78737eee.5.1302538272639; Mon, 11 Apr 2011 09:11:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.14.2.25 with SMTP id 25mr78736eee.5.1302538272588; Mon, 11 Apr 2011 09:11:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-ew0-f47.google.com (mail-ew0-f47.google.com [209.85.215.47]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id s53si1880399eeh.1.2011.04.11.09.11.12 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Mon, 11 Apr 2011 09:11:12 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of lukeabergen@gmail.com designates 209.85.215.47 as permitted sender) client-ip=209.85.215.47; Received: by ewy5 with SMTP id 5so2250861ewy.34 for ; Mon, 11 Apr 2011 09:11:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.213.113.140 with SMTP id a12mr1100090ebq.98.1302538272203; Mon, 11 Apr 2011 09:11:12 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.213.33.75 with HTTP; Mon, 11 Apr 2011 09:10:52 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <429120.92287.qm@web81303.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <759730.3522.qm@web81303.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <429120.92287.qm@web81303.mail.mud.yahoo.com> From: Luke Bergen Date: Mon, 11 Apr 2011 12:10:52 -0400 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban] Regularization To: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Original-Sender: lukeabergen@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of lukeabergen@gmail.com designates 209.85.215.47 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=lukeabergen@gmail.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=0015174c3e1605649104a0a6d339 --0015174c3e1605649104a0a6d339 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Hmmm, that's an interesting challenge. What is actually being expressed by "if it is cold, I will wear a coat"? I think it is something like {da'i mu'i lo nu lenku keiku mi dasni lo kosta}. This allows for {mi dasni lo kosta mu'inai lo nu na lenku} as well as {na lenku .ija'ebo mi na dasni lo kosta}. I think there's a kind of lite "if" (not "iff") implied in {broda mu'i lo nu brode} because the implication is that if not for {brode} than there would be no motivation for {broda}. That doesn't mean {na broda} of necessity. I think it also carries the connotation that if {brode} then {broda} since {lo nu brode} is apparently sufficient motive for {broda}. On Mon, Apr 11, 2011 at 11:55 AM, John E Clifford wrote: > If natural language "if" is so important/useful, what exactly does it do? > Is it one thing or several different (perhaps related) things? Consider the > correct translations of a number of English "if" sentences into other > languages, even those as close as French and German: are they all treated > the same way, and, if not, how -- and why -- do they differ? Until you have > sorted out the factors, it is hard to say what the right way to to treat it > in Lojban is. > 1. It is a conditional, so if the antecedent is true and the consequent > false, the whole is false (though some fiddling need be done sometimes with > exactly what the antecedent and consequent are), > OK, Carry on! > ------------------------------ > *From:* Jonathan Jones > *To:* lojban@googlegroups.com > *Sent:* Mon, April 11, 2011 10:32:32 AM > *Subject:* Re: [lojban] Regularization > > I think it can be, if {ta na mutce glare}. > > On Mon, Apr 11, 2011 at 9:07 AM, Alex Rozenshteyn wrote: > >> If {va'o} and {va'o da'i} are not the way to do it, how else would one >> translate a natlang "if"? It seems that lojban's logical connectives are >> too narrow in scope for the purpose. >> >> Furthermore, it seems odd to me that while place , time ({pu}, {ca}, >> {ba}), potentiality {{ca'a}, {ka'e}, etc), and contour/aspect can all be >> inferred from context (at least as I understood the CLL), factuallity vs >> counterfactuallity cannot: if the statement {ta jelca} can mean either >> "that is on fire" or "that is flammable", why can't {ta jelca va'o lo mutce >> glare} be read as counterfactual? >> >> >> On Mon, Apr 11, 2011 at 10:30 AM, Luke Bergen wrote: >> >>> That's a good point. If I say {mi citka ba lo nu mi xagji} it is >>> possible that there is causality baked in just via the fact that I'm stating >>> that the bridi {mi citka ba lo nu mi xagji} is true and NOT NECESSARILY that >>> {mi citka} is true. I wasn't asking specifically about {ri'a} vs {mu'i} vs >>> etc... I was just asking if there was a causal connection between the two >>> pieces. It very well COULD be that {mi citka ba lo nu mi xagji} and that >>> {mi citka} and {mi xagji} only happen to come one after the other. {mi >>> klama lo zdani ba lo nu mi pilno lo skami} doesn't necessarily imply >>> anything other than "after I used the computer, I went home". No mu'i, >>> ri'a, ni'i, etc... in that. >>> >>> (also, I think you ciska in lojban. If you're nu citka bau la lojban >>> then your mom didn't teach you very good table manners =p ) >>> >>> >>> On Mon, Apr 11, 2011 at 10:18 AM, Michael Turniansky < >>> mturniansky@gmail.com> wrote: >>> >>>> I would argue (and my opinion isn't necessarily the "one true way", >>>> mind you) that yeah it makes a factual claim, as does the main bridi. >>>> (Although I might simply phrase it "Having a pet dinosaur,...." (e.g. >>>> "... I go through a lot of Bronto Chow in week") In other words, I >>>> contend that with all BAI/FI'O constructions, you are making a factual >>>> claim. "Mi citka bau la lojban" I am not just claiming that I write, >>>> but I'm writing in lojban. Without the lojban part, the sentence just >>>> isn't true. If I say "mi gunka ki'u lo nu mi nitcu lo jdini", if I >>>> don't need the money, the bridi is not true. I am asserting "mi gunka >>>> .ije mi nitcu lo jdini". "va'" is no different in this regard. >>>> --gejyspa >>>> >>>> >>>> On Mon, Apr 11, 2011 at 10:05 AM, John E Clifford >>>> wrote: >>>> > Taking all that into account is {va'o lonu mi ponse lo dalpe'o >>>> dinsauru} "Since >>>> > I have a pet dinosaur" or is it merely indeterminate as to the truth >>>> of the >>>> > condition? >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > ----- Original Message ---- >>>> > From: Remo Dentato >>>> > To: lojban@googlegroups.com >>>> > Cc: Michael Turniansky >>>> > Sent: Mon, April 11, 2011 8:20:14 AM >>>> > Subject: Re: [lojban] Regularization >>>> > >>>> > On Mon, Apr 11, 2011 at 2:49 PM, Michael Turniansky >>>> > wrote: >>>> >> Counterfactual meaning not as things are, but as they might be. So, >>>> >> for example "va'o lo nu lo snime cu carvi kei mi ma'ekla le birju"-> >>>> >> "I drive to the office in the snow" ("in the situation of it snowing, >>>> >> I drive to the office") "va'o da'i lo nu lo snime cu carvi kei mi >>>> >> ma'ekla le birju" -> "if it snows, I will drive to the office". ("in >>>> >> the theoretical situation of it snowing, I drive to the office") >>>> >> Clearer? >>>> > >>>> > A little bit. I guess that in the translation of "if I had a pet >>>> dinosaur" >>>> > >>>> > >>>> http://www.lojban.org/tiki/tiki-download_wiki_attachment.php?attId=784 >>>> > >>>> > Instead of {va'o lonu mi ponse lo dalpe'o dinsauru}) I should have >>>> > used {va'o da'i lonu mi ponse >>>> > lo dalpe'o dinsauru} >>>> > >>>> > -- >>>> > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>> Groups >>>> > "lojban" group. >>>> > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. >>>> > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >>>> > lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. >>>> > For more options, visit this group at >>>> > http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > -- >>>> > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>> Groups "lojban" group. >>>> > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. >>>> > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >>>> lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. >>>> > For more options, visit this group at >>>> http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. >>>> > >>>> > >>>> >>>> -- >>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>> Groups "lojban" group. >>>> To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. >>>> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >>>> lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. >>>> For more options, visit this group at >>>> http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. >>>> >>>> >>> -- >>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >>> "lojban" group. >>> To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. >>> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >>> lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. >>> For more options, visit this group at >>> http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. >>> >> >> >> >> -- >> Alex R >> >> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >> "lojban" group. >> To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. >> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >> lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. >> For more options, visit this group at >> http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. >> > > > > -- > mu'o mi'e .aionys. > > .i.a'o.e'e ko cmima le bende pe lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu > do zo'o > (Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D ) > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "lojban" group. > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "lojban" group. > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. --0015174c3e1605649104a0a6d339 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hmmm, that's an interesting challenge. =A0What is actually being e= xpressed by "if it is cold, I will wear a coat"? =A0I think it is= something like {da'i mu'i lo nu lenku keiku mi dasni lo kosta}. = =A0This allows for {mi dasni lo kosta mu'inai lo nu na lenku} as well a= s {na lenku .ija'ebo mi na dasni lo kosta}.

I think there's a kind of lite "if" (not = "iff") implied in {broda mu'i lo nu brode} because the implic= ation is that if not for {brode} than there would be no motivation for {bro= da}. =A0That doesn't mean {na broda} of=A0necessity. =A0I think it also= carries the connotation that if {brode} then {broda} since {lo nu brode} i= s apparently sufficient motive for {broda}.

On Mon, Apr 11, 2011 at 11:55 AM, John = E Clifford <ka= li9putra@yahoo.com> wrote:
If natural language "if" is so important/useful, wh= at exactly does it do?=A0 Is it one thing or several different (perhaps rel= ated) things?=A0 Consider the correct translations of a number of English &= quot;if" sentences into other languages, even those as close as French= and German: are they all treated the same way, and, if not, how -- and why= -- do they differ?=A0 Until you have sorted out the factors, it is hard to= say what the right way to to treat it in Lojban is.
1.=A0 It is a conditional, so if the antecedent is true and th= e consequent false, the whole is false (though some fiddling need be done s= ometimes with exactly what the antecedent and consequent are),=A0
OK, Carry on!
= From: Jonathan Jones <eyeonus@gmail.com><= br> To: lojban@googlegroups.com
Sent: Mon, April 11, 2011 10:32:32 = AM
Subject: Re: [lojban] Regula= rization

I think it can be, if {ta na mutce glare}.

On Mon, Apr 11, 2011 at 9:07 AM, Alex Rozenshteyn <<= a rel=3D"nofollow" href=3D"mailto:rpglover64@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">r= pglover64@gmail.com> wrote:
If {va'o} and {va'o da'i} are no= t the way to do it, how else would one translate a natlang "if"?= =A0 It seems that lojban's logical connectives are too narrow in scope = for the purpose.

Furthermore, it seems odd to me that while place , time ({pu}, {ca}, {b= a}), potentiality {{ca'a}, {ka'e}, etc), and contour/aspect can all= be inferred from context (at least as I understood the CLL), factuallity v= s counterfactuallity cannot:=A0 if the statement {ta jelca} can mean either= "that is on fire" or "that is flammable", why can'= t {ta jelca va'o lo mutce glare} be read as counterfactual?


On Mon, Apr 11, 2011 at 10:30 AM, Luke Berge= n <lukeabergen@gmail.com> wrote:
That's a good point. =A0If I say {mi citka ba lo nu mi xagji} it is pos= sible that there is causality baked in just via the fact that I'm stati= ng that the bridi {mi citka ba lo nu mi xagji} is true and NOT NECESSARILY = that {mi citka} is true. =A0I wasn't asking specifically about {ri'= a} vs {mu'i} vs etc... I was just asking if there was a causal connecti= on between the two pieces. =A0It very well COULD be that {mi citka ba lo nu= mi xagji} and that {mi citka} and {mi xagji} only happen to come one after= the other. =A0{mi klama lo zdani ba lo nu mi pilno lo skami} doesn't n= ecessarily imply anything other than "after I used the computer, I wen= t home". =A0No mu'i, ri'a, ni'i, etc... in that.

(also, I think you ciska in lojban. =A0If you're nu citk= a bau la lojban then your mom didn't teach you very good table manners = =3Dp )


On Mon, Apr 1= 1, 2011 at 10:18 AM, Michael Turniansky <mturniansky@= gmail.com> wrote:
=A0I would argue (and my opinion isn't = necessarily the "one true way",
mind you) that yeah it makes a factual claim, as does the main bridi.
(Although I might simply phrase it "Having a pet dinosaur,...." (= e.g.
"... I go through a lot of Bronto Chow in week") =A0In other word= s, I
contend that with all BAI/FI'O constructions, you are making a factual<= br> claim. =A0"Mi citka bau la lojban" I am not just claiming that I = write,
but I'm writing in lojban. =A0Without the lojban part, the sentence jus= t
isn't true. =A0If I say "mi gunka ki'u lo nu mi nitcu lo jdini= ", if I
don't need the money, the bridi is not true. =A0I am asserting "mi= gunka
.ije mi nitcu lo jdini". =A0"va'" is no different in thi= s regard.
=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0--gejyspa


On Mon, Apr 11, 2011 at 10:05 AM, John E Clifford <kali9putra@yahoo.com<= /a>> wrote:
> Taking all that into account is {va'o lonu mi ponse lo dalpe'o= dinsauru} "Since
> I have a pet dinosaur" or is it merely indeterminate as to the tr= uth of the
> condition?
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message ----
> From: Remo Dentato <rdentato@gmail.com>
> To: lojban@googlegroups.com
> Cc: Michael Turniansky <mturniansky@gmail.com>
> Sent: Mon, April 11, 2011 8:20:14 AM
> Subject: Re: [lojban] Regularization
>
> On Mon, Apr 11, 2011 at 2:49 PM, Michael Turniansky
> <mturniansky@gmail.com> wrote:
>> =A0Counterfactual meaning not as things are, but as they might be.= =A0So,
>> for example "va'o lo nu lo snime cu carvi kei mi ma'e= kla le birju"->
>> "I drive to the office in the snow" ("in the situat= ion of it snowing,
>> I drive to the office") =A0"va'o da'i lo nu lo s= nime cu carvi kei mi
>> ma'ekla le birju" -> "if it snows, I will drive t= o the office". =A0("in
>> the theoretical situation of it snowing, I drive to the office&quo= t;)
>> =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0Clearer?
>
> A little bit. I guess that in the translation of "if I had a pet = dinosaur"
>
> http://www.lojban.org/tiki/tiki-download_w= iki_attachment.php?attId=3D784
>
> Instead of {va'o lonu mi ponse lo dalpe'o dinsauru}) I should = have
> used {va'o da'i lonu mi ponse
> lo dalpe'o dinsauru}
>
> --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Gro= ups
> "lojban" group.
> To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to
> lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
> For more options, visit this group at
> http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den.
>
>
>
>
> --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Gro= ups "lojban" group.
> To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+= unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
> For more options, visit this group at http://groups.= google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den.
>
>

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--
=A0=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0Alex R

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--
mu'o mi= 'e .aionys.

.i.a'o.e'e ko cmima le bende pe lo pilno be = denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do zo'o
(Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I= am your father. :D )

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