Causes, motives, reasons and the like all have a formulat= ion that involves a conditional, but mayn't conditionals occur when none of= these is at issue? If so, what else may be involved? If not, w= hat is the essential features of these cases that is reflected in the condi= tional? The fact that Lojban generally puts causes and reason and the= like into noun phrases may be a small problem here, since it is a litle ha= rd to say what property of a noun phrase corresponds exactly to the truth o= f the underlying sentence.

From: Luke Bergen <lukeabergen@gmail.com>
To: lojban@googlegroups.com
Sent: Mon, April 11, 2011 11:10:52 AM
Subject: Re: [lojban] Regularizatio= n

Hmmm, that's an interesting challenge. What is a= ctually being expressed by "if it is cold, I will wear a coat"? I thi= nk it is something like {da'i mu'i lo nu lenku keiku mi dasni lo kosta}. &n= bsp;This allows for {mi dasni lo kosta mu'inai lo nu na lenku} as well as {= na lenku .ija'ebo mi na dasni lo kosta}.

I think there's a kind of lite "if" (not "iff") implied= in {broda mu'i lo nu brode} because the implication is that if not for {br= ode} than there would be no motivation for {broda}. That doesn't mean= {na broda} of necessity. I think it also carries the connotatio= n that if {brode} then {broda} since {lo nu brode} is apparently sufficient= motive for {broda}.

On Mon, Apr 11, 2011 at 11:55 AM, John = E Clifford <ka= li9putra@yahoo.com> wrote:

If natural language "if" is so important/useful, what exa= ctly does it do? Is it one thing or several different (perhaps relate= d) things? Consider the correct translations of a number of English "= if" sentences into other languages, even those as close as French and Germa= n: are they all treated the same way, and, if not, how -- and why -- do the= y differ? Until you have sorted out the factors, it is hard to say wh= at the right way to to treat it in Lojban is.

1. It is a conditional, so if the antecedent is true an= d the consequent false, the whole is false (though some fiddling need be do= ne sometimes with exactly what the antecedent and consequent are), OK, Carry on!
From: Jonathan Jones <eyeonus@gmail.com>
To: lojban@googlegroups.com
Sent: Mon, April 11, 2011 10:32:32 AM
Subject: Re: [lojban] Regul= arization

I think it can be, if {ta na mutce glare}.

On Mon, Apr 11, 2011 at 9:07 AM, Alex Rozenshteyn <<= a rel=3D"nofollow" ymailto=3D"mailto:rpglover64@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank= " href=3D"mailto:rpglover64@gmail.com">rpglover64@gmail.com> = wrote:

If {va'o} and {va'o da'i} are not the way t= o do it, how else would one translate a natlang "if"? It seems that l= ojban's logical connectives are too narrow in scope for the purpose.

Furthermore, it seems odd to me that while place , time ({pu}, {ca}, {b= a}), potentiality {{ca'a}, {ka'e}, etc), and contour/aspect can all be infe= rred from context (at least as I understood the CLL), factuallity vs counte= rfactuallity cannot: if the statement {ta jelca} can mean either "tha= t is on fire" or "that is flammable", why can't {ta jelca va'o lo mutce gla= re} be read as counterfactual?

On Mon, Apr 11, 2011 at 10:30 AM, Luke Berge= n <lukeaberg= en@gmail.com> wrote:
That's a good point. If I say {mi citka ba lo nu mi xagji} it is poss= ible that there is causality baked in just via the fact that I'm stating th= at the bridi {mi citka ba lo nu mi xagji} is true and NOT NECESSARILY that = {mi citka} is true. I wasn't asking specifically about {ri'a} vs {mu'= i} vs etc... I was just asking if there was a causal connection between the= two pieces. It very well COULD be that {mi citka ba lo nu mi xagji} = and that {mi citka} and {mi xagji} only happen to come one after the other.= {mi klama lo zdani ba lo nu mi pilno lo skami} doesn't necessarily i= mply anything other than "after I used the computer, I went home". No= mu'i, ri'a, ni'i, etc... in that.

(also, I think you ciska in lojban. If you're nu citka= bau la lojban then your mom didn't teach you very good table manners =3Dp = )

On Mon, Apr 11, 20= 11 at 10:18 AM, Michael Turniansky <mturniansky@gmail.com> wrote:

I would argue (and my opinion isn't = necessarily the "one true way",
mind you) that yeah it makes a factual claim, as does the main bridi.
(Although I might simply phrase it "Having a pet dinosaur,...." (e.g.
"... I go through a lot of Bronto Chow in week") In other words, I contend that with all BAI/FI'O constructions, you are making a factual
claim. "Mi citka bau la lojban" I am not just claiming that I write,<= br> but I'm writing in lojban. Without the lojban part, the sentence just=
isn't true. If I say "mi gunka ki'u lo nu mi nitcu lo jdini", if I don't need the money, the bridi is not true. I am asserting "mi gunka=
.ije mi nitcu lo jdini". "va'" is no different in this regard.
--gejyspa

On Mon, Apr 11, 2011 at 10:05 AM, John E Clifford <kali9putra@yahoo.com> wrote:
> Taking all that into account is {va'o lonu mi ponse lo dalpe'o dinsaur= u} "Since
> I have a pet dinosaur" or is it merely indeterminate as to the truth o= f the
> condition?
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message ----
> From: Remo Dentato <rdentato@gm= ail.com>
> To: lojban@googlegroups.= com
> Cc: Michael Turniansky <m= turniansky@gmail.com>
> Sent: Mon, April 11, 2011 8:20:14 AM
> Subject: Re: [lojban] Regularization
>
> On Mon, Apr 11, 2011 at 2:49 PM, Michael Turniansky
> <mturniansky@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Counterfactual meaning not as things are, but as they might = be. So,
>> for example "va'o lo nu lo snime cu carvi kei mi ma'ekla le birju"= ->
>> "I drive to the office in the snow" ("in the situation of it snowi= ng,
>> I drive to the office") "va'o da'i lo nu lo snime cu carvi k= ei mi
>> ma'ekla le birju" -> "if it snows, I will drive to the office".= ("in
>> the theoretical situation of it snowing, I drive to the office") >> Clearer?
>
> A little bit. I guess that in the translation of "if I had a pet dinos= aur"
>
> http://www.lojban.org/tik= i/tiki-download_wiki_attachment.php?attId=3D784
>
> Instead of {va'o lonu mi ponse lo dalpe'o dinsauru}) I should have
> used {va'o da'i lonu mi ponse
> lo dalpe'o dinsauru}
>
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mu'o mi'e .= aionys.

.i.a'o.e'e ko cmima le bende pe lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.= luk. mi patfu do zo'o
(Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D = )

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