From lojban+bncCIycn8S8DhDi8YztBBoEqPvSKw@googlegroups.com Mon Apr 11 10:23:00 2011 Received: from mail-qy0-f189.google.com ([209.85.216.189]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1Q9KpD-0005hU-Uf; Mon, 11 Apr 2011 10:23:00 -0700 Received: by qyk36 with SMTP id 36sf7332458qyk.16 for ; Mon, 11 Apr 2011 10:22:50 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version :in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:x-google-group-id:list-post :list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe :content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=IDXY2Zj8HR9Uls0+5TT+9L12brgBB3GrkaO0q9HALGQ=; b=gAy8DWIiYYwG4jglq3VcVZfT059U8k7tfzfZhuJcMTl7WTKcRMp4+VrtsxOydES+yz ieV7dSwSoqEqz/UvsKmWIbhg2aukk4TrvvQL+Vb4M4Gie8Zb/GdC0al9DGzBEicDYXZb fgbg3TwYpdKke4wKYOr80EewZLZJm6hOVDqvc= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date :message-id:subject:from:to:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:x-google-group-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender :list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; b=C5D1imN8coSCoaHQKOaE1q8J0dqNjy1cuqNXGpo/9Owk4kUF1IyEFPflugzyK7PVjm mwfEgpyashJYVHy1tXc+KkTS50nfijHkASA+vMHjYcRcG179ypkWux4iQIBhJ0OkRJgQ i2l9y63rt4YK4lWix9GaG75JxPYY3pMW/zJ/s= Received: by 10.229.131.25 with SMTP id v25mr615646qcs.44.1302542562807; Mon, 11 Apr 2011 10:22:42 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.229.229.132 with SMTP id ji4ls367584qcb.1.p; Mon, 11 Apr 2011 10:22:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.229.78.209 with SMTP id m17mr331521qck.14.1302542562005; Mon, 11 Apr 2011 10:22:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.229.78.209 with SMTP id m17mr331520qck.14.1302542561983; Mon, 11 Apr 2011 10:22:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-qy0-f178.google.com (mail-qy0-f178.google.com [209.85.216.178]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id f1si1086459qcq.14.2011.04.11.10.22.40 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Mon, 11 Apr 2011 10:22:40 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of mturniansky@gmail.com designates 209.85.216.178 as permitted sender) client-ip=209.85.216.178; Received: by qyk2 with SMTP id 2so3734513qyk.9 for ; Mon, 11 Apr 2011 10:22:40 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.224.216.199 with SMTP id hj7mr4103288qab.133.1302542560381; Mon, 11 Apr 2011 10:22:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.229.96.135 with HTTP; Mon, 11 Apr 2011 10:22:40 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: <759730.3522.qm@web81303.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Date: Mon, 11 Apr 2011 13:22:40 -0400 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban] Regularization From: Michael Turniansky To: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Original-Sender: mturniansky@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of mturniansky@gmail.com designates 209.85.216.178 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=mturniansky@gmail.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I know you were ostensibly responding to Luke, but if you were responding in fact to me, I was saying that va'o da'i IS the way to translate the natlang "if" (in the sense we've been discussing), but that va'o by itself is not. --gejyspa On Mon, Apr 11, 2011 at 11:07 AM, Alex Rozenshteyn w= rote: > If {va'o} and {va'o da'i} are not the way to do it, how else would one > translate a natlang "if"?=A0 It seems that lojban's logical connectives a= re > too narrow in scope for the purpose. > > Furthermore, it seems odd to me that while place , time ({pu}, {ca}, {ba}= ), > potentiality {{ca'a}, {ka'e}, etc), and contour/aspect can all be inferre= d > from context (at least as I understood the CLL), factuallity vs > counterfactuallity cannot:=A0 if the statement {ta jelca} can mean either > "that is on fire" or "that is flammable", why can't {ta jelca va'o lo mut= ce > glare} be read as counterfactual? > > On Mon, Apr 11, 2011 at 10:30 AM, Luke Bergen wro= te: >> >> That's a good point. =A0If I say {mi citka ba lo nu mi xagji} it is poss= ible >> that there is causality baked in just via the fact that I'm stating that= the >> bridi {mi citka ba lo nu mi xagji} is true and NOT NECESSARILY that {mi >> citka} is true. =A0I wasn't asking specifically about {ri'a} vs {mu'i} v= s >> etc... I was just asking if there was a causal connection between the tw= o >> pieces. =A0It very well COULD be that {mi citka ba lo nu mi xagji} and t= hat >> {mi citka} and {mi xagji} only happen to come one after the other. =A0{m= i >> klama lo zdani ba lo nu mi pilno lo skami} doesn't necessarily imply >> anything other than "after I used the computer, I went home". =A0No mu'i= , >> ri'a, ni'i, etc... in that. >> (also, I think you ciska in lojban. =A0If you're nu citka bau la lojban = then >> your mom didn't teach you very good table manners =3Dp ) >> >> On Mon, Apr 11, 2011 at 10:18 AM, Michael Turniansky >> wrote: >>> >>> =A0I would argue (and my opinion isn't necessarily the "one true way", >>> mind you) that yeah it makes a factual claim, as does the main bridi. >>> (Although I might simply phrase it "Having a pet dinosaur,...." (e.g. >>> "... I go through a lot of Bronto Chow in week") =A0In other words, I >>> contend that with all BAI/FI'O constructions, you are making a factual >>> claim. =A0"Mi citka bau la lojban" I am not just claiming that I write, >>> but I'm writing in lojban. =A0Without the lojban part, the sentence jus= t >>> isn't true. =A0If I say "mi gunka ki'u lo nu mi nitcu lo jdini", if I >>> don't need the money, the bridi is not true. =A0I am asserting "mi gunk= a >>> .ije mi nitcu lo jdini". =A0"va'" is no different in this regard. >>> =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0--gejyspa >>> >>> >>> On Mon, Apr 11, 2011 at 10:05 AM, John E Clifford >>> wrote: >>> > Taking all that into account is {va'o lonu mi ponse lo dalpe'o >>> > dinsauru} "Since >>> > I have a pet dinosaur" or is it merely indeterminate as to the truth = of >>> > the >>> > condition? >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > ----- Original Message ---- >>> > From: Remo Dentato >>> > To: lojban@googlegroups.com >>> > Cc: Michael Turniansky >>> > Sent: Mon, April 11, 2011 8:20:14 AM >>> > Subject: Re: [lojban] Regularization >>> > >>> > On Mon, Apr 11, 2011 at 2:49 PM, Michael Turniansky >>> > wrote: >>> >> =A0Counterfactual meaning not as things are, but as they might be. = =A0So, >>> >> for example "va'o lo nu lo snime cu carvi kei mi ma'ekla le birju"-> >>> >> "I drive to the office in the snow" ("in the situation of it snowing= , >>> >> I drive to the office") =A0"va'o da'i lo nu lo snime cu carvi kei mi >>> >> ma'ekla le birju" -> "if it snows, I will drive to the office". =A0(= "in >>> >> the theoretical situation of it snowing, I drive to the office") >>> >> =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0Clearer? >>> > >>> > A little bit. I guess that in the translation of "if I had a pet >>> > dinosaur" >>> > >>> > http://www.lojban.org/tiki/tiki-download_wiki_attachment.php?attId=3D= 784 >>> > >>> > Instead of {va'o lonu mi ponse lo dalpe'o dinsauru}) I should have >>> > used {va'o da'i lonu mi ponse >>> > lo dalpe'o dinsauru} >>> > >>> > -- >>> > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>> > Groups >>> > "lojban" group. >>> > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. >>> > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >>> > lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. >>> > For more options, visit this group at >>> > http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den. >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > -- >>> > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>> > Groups "lojban" group. >>> > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. >>> > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >>> > lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. >>> > For more options, visit this group at >>> > http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den. >>> > >>> > >>> >>> -- >>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Grou= ps >>> "lojban" group. >>> To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. >>> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >>> lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. >>> For more options, visit this group at >>> http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den. >>> >> >> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Group= s >> "lojban" group. >> To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. >> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >> lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. >> For more options, visit this group at >> http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den. > > > > -- > =A0=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0Alex R > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "lojban" group. > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den. > --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou= ps.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= ?hl=3Den.