From lojban+bncCML0xpmUARC19IztBBoExcPfnw@googlegroups.com Mon Apr 11 10:28:41 2011 Received: from mail-ww0-f61.google.com ([74.125.82.61]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1Q9Kuh-0008MP-LV; Mon, 11 Apr 2011 10:28:41 -0700 Received: by wwb13 with SMTP id 13sf6164925wwb.16 for ; Mon, 11 Apr 2011 10:28:29 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version :in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:x-google-group-id:list-post :list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe :content-type; bh=YglbOGf+O/tvMDRQt+VmzcLNypYYRZVMdFxyupwJq88=; b=ekOWcmfc0j02TYjV4oSJHdKfA2QjRCWBmBeShh3eP2m/YdGIeyR/5syquTAI56YGPN 4kzJ2NHVaqNNbf/hxbH+mOjNw8ATzQzritdYGaPDIlsIwFN2ESh9GQxjNyEuEELt9dc1 6RNX936hCuC2+dMhXAAeRjPgOW9kU7XVO9VjU= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date :message-id:subject:from:to:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:x-google-group-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender :list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; b=bpcSKmIHfBIkJA81XHst1i0i/kmnnmeut8xs1CQYsgz8qh+CYOz03kY6FTlZeCEY86 ROA8B2DeXShzbLL+5hPYw9fM/ZiUGYHnQO+bawetfQ9wM5HjZeOpo6B3o17QAYiFU2oP F+wqE1F9WZuQz86GhNPYkUPC0Qeaj5E/WyGQk= Received: by 10.216.14.35 with SMTP id c35mr1254379wec.0.1302542901697; Mon, 11 Apr 2011 10:28:21 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.216.49.69 with SMTP id w47ls760424web.2.p; Mon, 11 Apr 2011 10:28:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.216.59.213 with SMTP id s63mr356637wec.12.1302542900706; Mon, 11 Apr 2011 10:28:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.216.59.213 with SMTP id s63mr356636wec.12.1302542900622; Mon, 11 Apr 2011 10:28:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-ww0-f42.google.com (mail-ww0-f42.google.com [74.125.82.42]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id o58si594106wes.8.2011.04.11.10.28.20 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Mon, 11 Apr 2011 10:28:20 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of blindbravado@gmail.com designates 74.125.82.42 as permitted sender) client-ip=74.125.82.42; Received: by mail-ww0-f42.google.com with SMTP id 4so3222891wwk.5 for ; Mon, 11 Apr 2011 10:28:20 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.216.145.131 with SMTP id p3mr4979275wej.82.1302542900270; Mon, 11 Apr 2011 10:28:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.216.244.10 with HTTP; Mon, 11 Apr 2011 10:28:20 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <429120.92287.qm@web81303.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <759730.3522.qm@web81303.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <429120.92287.qm@web81303.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Date: Mon, 11 Apr 2011 13:28:20 -0400 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban] Regularization From: Ian Johnson To: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Original-Sender: blindbravado@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of blindbravado@gmail.com designates 74.125.82.42 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=blindbravado@gmail.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=0016e6dab185e015a104a0a7e63f --0016e6dab185e015a104a0a7e63f Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Material implication (your 1.) is tremendously weaker than natlang implication, because sentences like "The sky is green implies that Mars is blue" are true via material implication and blatantly false via natlang implication. Lojban *already acknowledges this *with regard to causation in that nibli and friends do not care about material implication at all. If x rinka y, then it is not sufficient that whenever x is true, y is true; it must be that x somehow physically causes (presumably by a force of some kind) y to happen. If x nibli y, there must be a sequence of logical steps which, beginning with the assumption of x, one can deduce y via the rules of inference of the system; which, as it turns out, does not happen every time x -> y in the ~x v y sense. {va'o}, at present, is being hard to pin down because it is proving to be a catchall for the cases that ni'i and friends have lost. Incidentally, I think I have an idea as to how va'o and vanbi are actually different. vanbi considers the environment of something to be non-distributive: a mass comprises the environment of something. It is not the case that some specific event is the entire environment of another event: a family of events and such comprise that together. In short, vanbi expects environment constituents to be joined via {joi}; va'o implicitly expects them to be joined via {.e}, if only because they are presented individually in practice. My current solution: .i ca'e ko'a selgumvanbi ko'e ko'i .ijo ko'a gunma ko'i poi ke'a vanbi ko'e .i ca'e lo smuni be zo va'o cu du lo smuni be lu fi'o selgumvanbi fe'u li'u The place structure is a little screwy, but it emphasizes the places you'd be more likely to actually use. .i pei mu'o mi'e .latros. On Mon, Apr 11, 2011 at 11:55 AM, John E Clifford wrote: > If natural language "if" is so important/useful, what exactly does it do? > Is it one thing or several different (perhaps related) things? Consider the > correct translations of a number of English "if" sentences into other > languages, even those as close as French and German: are they all treated > the same way, and, if not, how -- and why -- do they differ? Until you have > sorted out the factors, it is hard to say what the right way to to treat it > in Lojban is. > 1. It is a conditional, so if the antecedent is true and the consequent > false, the whole is false (though some fiddling need be done sometimes with > exactly what the antecedent and consequent are), > OK, Carry on! > ------------------------------ > *From:* Jonathan Jones > *To:* lojban@googlegroups.com > *Sent:* Mon, April 11, 2011 10:32:32 AM > *Subject:* Re: [lojban] Regularization > > I think it can be, if {ta na mutce glare}. > > On Mon, Apr 11, 2011 at 9:07 AM, Alex Rozenshteyn wrote: > >> If {va'o} and {va'o da'i} are not the way to do it, how else would one >> translate a natlang "if"? It seems that lojban's logical connectives are >> too narrow in scope for the purpose. >> >> Furthermore, it seems odd to me that while place , time ({pu}, {ca}, >> {ba}), potentiality {{ca'a}, {ka'e}, etc), and contour/aspect can all be >> inferred from context (at least as I understood the CLL), factuallity vs >> counterfactuallity cannot: if the statement {ta jelca} can mean either >> "that is on fire" or "that is flammable", why can't {ta jelca va'o lo mutce >> glare} be read as counterfactual? >> >> >> On Mon, Apr 11, 2011 at 10:30 AM, Luke Bergen wrote: >> >>> That's a good point. If I say {mi citka ba lo nu mi xagji} it is >>> possible that there is causality baked in just via the fact that I'm stating >>> that the bridi {mi citka ba lo nu mi xagji} is true and NOT NECESSARILY that >>> {mi citka} is true. I wasn't asking specifically about {ri'a} vs {mu'i} vs >>> etc... I was just asking if there was a causal connection between the two >>> pieces. It very well COULD be that {mi citka ba lo nu mi xagji} and that >>> {mi citka} and {mi xagji} only happen to come one after the other. {mi >>> klama lo zdani ba lo nu mi pilno lo skami} doesn't necessarily imply >>> anything other than "after I used the computer, I went home". No mu'i, >>> ri'a, ni'i, etc... in that. >>> >>> (also, I think you ciska in lojban. If you're nu citka bau la lojban >>> then your mom didn't teach you very good table manners =p ) >>> >>> >>> On Mon, Apr 11, 2011 at 10:18 AM, Michael Turniansky < >>> mturniansky@gmail.com> wrote: >>> >>>> I would argue (and my opinion isn't necessarily the "one true way", >>>> mind you) that yeah it makes a factual claim, as does the main bridi. >>>> (Although I might simply phrase it "Having a pet dinosaur,...." (e.g. >>>> "... I go through a lot of Bronto Chow in week") In other words, I >>>> contend that with all BAI/FI'O constructions, you are making a factual >>>> claim. "Mi citka bau la lojban" I am not just claiming that I write, >>>> but I'm writing in lojban. Without the lojban part, the sentence just >>>> isn't true. If I say "mi gunka ki'u lo nu mi nitcu lo jdini", if I >>>> don't need the money, the bridi is not true. I am asserting "mi gunka >>>> .ije mi nitcu lo jdini". "va'" is no different in this regard. >>>> --gejyspa >>>> >>>> >>>> On Mon, Apr 11, 2011 at 10:05 AM, John E Clifford >>>> wrote: >>>> > Taking all that into account is {va'o lonu mi ponse lo dalpe'o >>>> dinsauru} "Since >>>> > I have a pet dinosaur" or is it merely indeterminate as to the truth >>>> of the >>>> > condition? >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > ----- Original Message ---- >>>> > From: Remo Dentato >>>> > To: lojban@googlegroups.com >>>> > Cc: Michael Turniansky >>>> > Sent: Mon, April 11, 2011 8:20:14 AM >>>> > Subject: Re: [lojban] Regularization >>>> > >>>> > On Mon, Apr 11, 2011 at 2:49 PM, Michael Turniansky >>>> > wrote: >>>> >> Counterfactual meaning not as things are, but as they might be. So, >>>> >> for example "va'o lo nu lo snime cu carvi kei mi ma'ekla le birju"-> >>>> >> "I drive to the office in the snow" ("in the situation of it snowing, >>>> >> I drive to the office") "va'o da'i lo nu lo snime cu carvi kei mi >>>> >> ma'ekla le birju" -> "if it snows, I will drive to the office". ("in >>>> >> the theoretical situation of it snowing, I drive to the office") >>>> >> Clearer? >>>> > >>>> > A little bit. I guess that in the translation of "if I had a pet >>>> dinosaur" >>>> > >>>> > >>>> http://www.lojban.org/tiki/tiki-download_wiki_attachment.php?attId=784 >>>> > >>>> > Instead of {va'o lonu mi ponse lo dalpe'o dinsauru}) I should have >>>> > used {va'o da'i lonu mi ponse >>>> > lo dalpe'o dinsauru} >>>> > >>>> > -- >>>> > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>> Groups >>>> > "lojban" group. >>>> > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. >>>> > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >>>> > lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. >>>> > For more options, visit this group at >>>> > http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > -- >>>> > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>> Groups "lojban" group. >>>> > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. >>>> > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >>>> lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. >>>> > For more options, visit this group at >>>> http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. >>>> > >>>> > >>>> >>>> -- >>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>> Groups "lojban" group. >>>> To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. >>>> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >>>> lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. >>>> For more options, visit this group at >>>> http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. >>>> >>>> >>> -- >>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >>> "lojban" group. >>> To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. >>> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >>> lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. >>> For more options, visit this group at >>> http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. >>> >> >> >> >> -- >> Alex R >> >> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >> "lojban" group. >> To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. >> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >> lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. >> For more options, visit this group at >> http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. >> > > > > -- > mu'o mi'e .aionys. > > .i.a'o.e'e ko cmima le bende pe lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu > do zo'o > (Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D ) > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "lojban" group. > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "lojban" group. > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. --0016e6dab185e015a104a0a7e63f Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Material implication (your 1.) is tremendously weaker than natlang implicat= ion, because sentences like "The sky is green implies that Mars is blu= e" are true via material implication and blatantly false via natlang i= mplication. Lojban already acknowledges this with regard to causatio= n in that nibli and friends do not care about material implication at all. = If x rinka y, then it is not sufficient that whenever x is true, y is true;= it must be that x somehow physically causes (presumably by a force of some= kind) y to happen. If x nibli y, there must be a sequence of logical steps= which, beginning with the assumption of x, one can deduce y via the rules = of inference of the system; which, as it turns out, does not happen every t= ime x -> y in the ~x v y sense.

{va'o}, at present, is being hard to pin down because it is proving= to be a catchall for the cases that ni'i and friends have lost.
Incidentally, I think I have an idea as to how va'o and vanbi are actu= ally different. vanbi considers the environment of something to be non-dist= ributive: a mass comprises the environment of something. It is not the case= that some specific event is the entire environment of another event: a fam= ily of events and such comprise that together. In short, vanbi expects envi= ronment constituents to be joined via {joi}; va'o implicitly expects th= em to be joined via {.e}, if only because they are presented individually i= n practice. My current solution:
.i ca'e ko'a selgumvanbi ko'e ko'i .ijo ko'a gunma ko&#= 39;i poi ke'a vanbi ko'e
.i ca'e lo smuni be zo va'o cu = du lo smuni be lu fi'o selgumvanbi fe'u li'u
The place struc= ture is a little screwy, but it emphasizes the places you'd be more lik= ely to actually use.

.i pei

mu'o mi'e .latros.

On Mon, Apr 11, 2011 at 11:55 AM, John E Clifford <= ;kali9putra@yahoo.com> wrote:
If natural language "if" is so important/useful, what exactly = does it do?=A0 Is it one thing or several different (perhaps related) thing= s?=A0 Consider the correct translations of a number of English "if&quo= t; sentences into other languages, even those as close as French and German= : are they all treated the same way, and, if not, how -- and why -- do they= differ?=A0 Until you have sorted out the factors, it is hard to say what t= he right way to to treat it in Lojban is.
1.=A0 It is a conditional, so if the antecedent is true and t= he consequent false, the whole is false (though some fiddling need be done = sometimes with exactly what the antecedent and consequent are),=A0
OK, Carry on!
From: Jonathan Jones <eyeonus@gmail.com&g= t;
To: lojban@googlegroups.com
Sent: Mon, April 11, 2011 10:32= :32 AM
Subject: Re: [lojban] Regu= larization

I think it can be, if {ta na mutce glare}.

On Mon, Apr 11, 2011 at 9:07 AM, Alex Rozenshteyn <<= a rel=3D"nofollow" href=3D"mailto:rpglover64@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">r= pglover64@gmail.com> wrote:
If {va'o} and= {va'o da'i} are not the way to do it, how else would one translate= a natlang "if"?=A0 It seems that lojban's logical connective= s are too narrow in scope for the purpose.

Furthermore, it seems odd to me that while place , time ({pu}, {ca}, {b= a}), potentiality {{ca'a}, {ka'e}, etc), and contour/aspect can all= be inferred from context (at least as I understood the CLL), factuallity v= s counterfactuallity cannot:=A0 if the statement {ta jelca} can mean either= "that is on fire" or "that is flammable", why can'= t {ta jelca va'o lo mutce glare} be read as counterfactual?


On Mon, Apr 11, 2011 at 10:30 AM, Luke Berge= n <lukeabergen@gmail.com> wrote:
That's a good point. =A0If I say {mi citka ba lo nu mi xagji} it is pos= sible that there is causality baked in just via the fact that I'm stati= ng that the bridi {mi citka ba lo nu mi xagji} is true and NOT NECESSARILY = that {mi citka} is true. =A0I wasn't asking specifically about {ri'= a} vs {mu'i} vs etc... I was just asking if there was a causal connecti= on between the two pieces. =A0It very well COULD be that {mi citka ba lo nu= mi xagji} and that {mi citka} and {mi xagji} only happen to come one after= the other. =A0{mi klama lo zdani ba lo nu mi pilno lo skami} doesn't n= ecessarily imply anything other than "after I used the computer, I wen= t home". =A0No mu'i, ri'a, ni'i, etc... in that.

(also, I think you ciska in lojban. =A0If you're nu citk= a bau la lojban then your mom didn't teach you very good table manners = =3Dp )


On Mon, Apr 1= 1, 2011 at 10:18 AM, Michael Turniansky <mturniansky@= gmail.com> wrote:
=A0I would argue= (and my opinion isn't necessarily the "one true way",
mind you) that yeah it makes a factual claim, as does the main bridi.
(Although I might simply phrase it "Having a pet dinosaur,...." (= e.g.
"... I go through a lot of Bronto Chow in week") =A0In other word= s, I
contend that with all BAI/FI'O constructions, you are making a factual<= br> claim. =A0"Mi citka bau la lojban" I am not just claiming that I = write,
but I'm writing in lojban. =A0Without the lojban part, the sentence jus= t
isn't true. =A0If I say "mi gunka ki'u lo nu mi nitcu lo jdini= ", if I
don't need the money, the bridi is not true. =A0I am asserting "mi= gunka
.ije mi nitcu lo jdini". =A0"va'" is no different in thi= s regard.
=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0--gejyspa


On Mon, Apr 11, 2011 at 10:05 AM, John E Clifford <kali9putra@yahoo.com<= /a>> wrote:
> Taking all that into account is {va'o lonu mi ponse lo dalpe'o= dinsauru} "Since
> I have a pet dinosaur" or is it merely indeterminate as to the tr= uth of the
> condition?
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message ----
> From: Remo Dentato <rdentato@gmail.com>
> To: lojban@googlegroups.com
> Cc: Michael Turniansky <mturniansky@gmail.com>
> Sent: Mon, April 11, 2011 8:20:14 AM
> Subject: Re: [lojban] Regularization
>
> On Mon, Apr 11, 2011 at 2:49 PM, Michael Turniansky
> <mturniansky@gmail.com> wrote:
>> =A0Counterfactual meaning not as things are, but as they might be.= =A0So,
>> for example "va'o lo nu lo snime cu carvi kei mi ma'e= kla le birju"->
>> "I drive to the office in the snow" ("in the situat= ion of it snowing,
>> I drive to the office") =A0"va'o da'i lo nu lo s= nime cu carvi kei mi
>> ma'ekla le birju" -> "if it snows, I will drive t= o the office". =A0("in
>> the theoretical situation of it snowing, I drive to the office&quo= t;)
>> =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0Clearer?
>
> A little bit. I guess that in the translation of "if I had a pet = dinosaur"
>
> http://www.lojban.org/tiki/tiki-download_w= iki_attachment.php?attId=3D784
>
> Instead of {va'o lonu mi ponse lo dalpe'o dinsauru}) I should = have
> used {va'o da'i lonu mi ponse
> lo dalpe'o dinsauru}
>
> --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Gro= ups
> "lojban" group.
> To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to
> lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
> For more options, visit this group at
> http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den.
>
>
>
>
> --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Gro= ups "lojban" group.
> To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+= unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
> For more options, visit this group at http://groups.= google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den.
>
>

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--
=A0=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0Alex R

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--
mu'o mi= 'e .aionys.

.i.a'o.e'e ko cmima le bende pe lo pilno be = denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do zo'o
(Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I= am your father. :D )

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