From lojban+bncCML0xpmUARDE9oztBBoEPx_AsQ@googlegroups.com Mon Apr 11 10:33:11 2011 Received: from mail-gw0-f61.google.com ([74.125.83.61]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1Q9Kz3-0008TQ-VQ; Mon, 11 Apr 2011 10:33:11 -0700 Received: by gwb11 with SMTP id 11sf10148938gwb.16 for ; Mon, 11 Apr 2011 10:32:59 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version :in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:x-google-group-id:list-post :list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe :content-type; bh=Dc6yzoUI07fx181J7Mebc9GXxL/U1EXUFGuXpHK7n0A=; b=Md3YlZkqPVZ4KpmiVpbQlOG954+yiaP8Sk0YSEW1qMRvDAsp5DAGwiAkfh3OauiFmt w2iotDZ8eka7xQgePTj5YCMvJUEiIsvqlhD4Z9oZK/cizoLyW3n/Cl1Jn1imr9g6rta6 rJNdb3aSFR6FgMSdn4Wf+BaAen6e8mPeMqVyk= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date :message-id:subject:from:to:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:x-google-group-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender :list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; b=r2q2Ouac+7gozduK49EsxP9Ltn8Lx1nuUDvW9ZRcBH1PPV2yBiYSFSWG3G5zMyzLs8 ZA1oCqcZPyous00pwAE+C8lNfFsBB2jv0gOacki+yNY/TkP/JgNzW2PoF4g9lgv7FSUV d9VwXVqyj7mkFj0op0iXsbQSTjEWRd2uLaUDw= Received: by 10.151.29.16 with SMTP id g16mr50615ybj.48.1302543172097; Mon, 11 Apr 2011 10:32:52 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.231.8.234 with SMTP id i42ls6158248ibi.3.p; Mon, 11 Apr 2011 10:32:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.231.19.11 with SMTP id y11mr2236744iba.17.1302543171246; Mon, 11 Apr 2011 10:32:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.231.19.11 with SMTP id y11mr2236742iba.17.1302543171199; Mon, 11 Apr 2011 10:32:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-wy0-f180.google.com (mail-wy0-f180.google.com [74.125.82.180]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id dz6si1328804ibb.7.2011.04.11.10.32.50 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Mon, 11 Apr 2011 10:32:51 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of blindbravado@gmail.com designates 74.125.82.180 as permitted sender) client-ip=74.125.82.180; Received: by wyj26 with SMTP id 26so7230854wyj.39 for ; Mon, 11 Apr 2011 10:32:49 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.216.195.139 with SMTP id p11mr5062981wen.67.1302543169469; Mon, 11 Apr 2011 10:32:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.216.244.10 with HTTP; Mon, 11 Apr 2011 10:32:49 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: <759730.3522.qm@web81303.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Date: Mon, 11 Apr 2011 13:32:49 -0400 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban] Regularization From: Ian Johnson To: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Original-Sender: blindbravado@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of blindbravado@gmail.com designates 74.125.82.180 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=blindbravado@gmail.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=0016e6dd859eebbf2104a0a7f6be --0016e6dd859eebbf2104a0a7f6be Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 One problem with {va'o da'i} is that it is ambiguous with respect to counterfactuality, in that events which are hypothetical are permitted to happen. In English, we have "If ... then ..." vs. "Were it true that ... then ...". (My example is clunky because it's generic; in practice it's not necessarily that clunky.) In some Romance languages we have different subjunctive tenses for this distinction: Latin would use "si " for the non-counterfactual case and "si " for the counterfactual case. How can Lojban make this distinction? mu'o mi'e .latros. On Mon, Apr 11, 2011 at 1:22 PM, Michael Turniansky wrote: > I know you were ostensibly responding to Luke, but if you were > responding in fact to me, I was saying that va'o da'i IS the way to > translate the natlang "if" (in the sense we've been discussing), but > that va'o by itself is not. > --gejyspa > > > On Mon, Apr 11, 2011 at 11:07 AM, Alex Rozenshteyn > wrote: > > If {va'o} and {va'o da'i} are not the way to do it, how else would one > > translate a natlang "if"? It seems that lojban's logical connectives are > > too narrow in scope for the purpose. > > > > Furthermore, it seems odd to me that while place , time ({pu}, {ca}, > {ba}), > > potentiality {{ca'a}, {ka'e}, etc), and contour/aspect can all be > inferred > > from context (at least as I understood the CLL), factuallity vs > > counterfactuallity cannot: if the statement {ta jelca} can mean either > > "that is on fire" or "that is flammable", why can't {ta jelca va'o lo > mutce > > glare} be read as counterfactual? > > > > On Mon, Apr 11, 2011 at 10:30 AM, Luke Bergen > wrote: > >> > >> That's a good point. If I say {mi citka ba lo nu mi xagji} it is > possible > >> that there is causality baked in just via the fact that I'm stating that > the > >> bridi {mi citka ba lo nu mi xagji} is true and NOT NECESSARILY that {mi > >> citka} is true. I wasn't asking specifically about {ri'a} vs {mu'i} vs > >> etc... I was just asking if there was a causal connection between the > two > >> pieces. It very well COULD be that {mi citka ba lo nu mi xagji} and > that > >> {mi citka} and {mi xagji} only happen to come one after the other. {mi > >> klama lo zdani ba lo nu mi pilno lo skami} doesn't necessarily imply > >> anything other than "after I used the computer, I went home". No mu'i, > >> ri'a, ni'i, etc... in that. > >> (also, I think you ciska in lojban. If you're nu citka bau la lojban > then > >> your mom didn't teach you very good table manners =p ) > >> > >> On Mon, Apr 11, 2011 at 10:18 AM, Michael Turniansky > >> wrote: > >>> > >>> I would argue (and my opinion isn't necessarily the "one true way", > >>> mind you) that yeah it makes a factual claim, as does the main bridi. > >>> (Although I might simply phrase it "Having a pet dinosaur,...." (e.g. > >>> "... I go through a lot of Bronto Chow in week") In other words, I > >>> contend that with all BAI/FI'O constructions, you are making a factual > >>> claim. "Mi citka bau la lojban" I am not just claiming that I write, > >>> but I'm writing in lojban. Without the lojban part, the sentence just > >>> isn't true. If I say "mi gunka ki'u lo nu mi nitcu lo jdini", if I > >>> don't need the money, the bridi is not true. I am asserting "mi gunka > >>> .ije mi nitcu lo jdini". "va'" is no different in this regard. > >>> --gejyspa > >>> > >>> > >>> On Mon, Apr 11, 2011 at 10:05 AM, John E Clifford < > kali9putra@yahoo.com> > >>> wrote: > >>> > Taking all that into account is {va'o lonu mi ponse lo dalpe'o > >>> > dinsauru} "Since > >>> > I have a pet dinosaur" or is it merely indeterminate as to the truth > of > >>> > the > >>> > condition? > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > ----- Original Message ---- > >>> > From: Remo Dentato > >>> > To: lojban@googlegroups.com > >>> > Cc: Michael Turniansky > >>> > Sent: Mon, April 11, 2011 8:20:14 AM > >>> > Subject: Re: [lojban] Regularization > >>> > > >>> > On Mon, Apr 11, 2011 at 2:49 PM, Michael Turniansky > >>> > wrote: > >>> >> Counterfactual meaning not as things are, but as they might be. > So, > >>> >> for example "va'o lo nu lo snime cu carvi kei mi ma'ekla le birju"-> > >>> >> "I drive to the office in the snow" ("in the situation of it > snowing, > >>> >> I drive to the office") "va'o da'i lo nu lo snime cu carvi kei mi > >>> >> ma'ekla le birju" -> "if it snows, I will drive to the office". > ("in > >>> >> the theoretical situation of it snowing, I drive to the office") > >>> >> Clearer? > >>> > > >>> > A little bit. I guess that in the translation of "if I had a pet > >>> > dinosaur" > >>> > > >>> > > http://www.lojban.org/tiki/tiki-download_wiki_attachment.php?attId=784 > >>> > > >>> > Instead of {va'o lonu mi ponse lo dalpe'o dinsauru}) I should have > >>> > used {va'o da'i lonu mi ponse > >>> > lo dalpe'o dinsauru} > >>> > > >>> > -- > >>> > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google > >>> > Groups > >>> > "lojban" group. > >>> > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > >>> > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > >>> > lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > >>> > For more options, visit this group at > >>> > http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > -- > >>> > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google > >>> > Groups "lojban" group. > >>> > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > >>> > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > >>> > lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > >>> > For more options, visit this group at > >>> > http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > >>> -- > >>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google > Groups > >>> "lojban" group. > >>> To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > >>> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > >>> lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > >>> For more options, visit this group at > >>> http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. > >>> > >> > >> -- > >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google > Groups > >> "lojban" group. > >> To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > >> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > >> lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > >> For more options, visit this group at > >> http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. > > > > > > > > -- > > Alex R > > > > -- > > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > > "lojban" group. > > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > > lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > > For more options, visit this group at > > http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. > > > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "lojban" group. > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. > > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. --0016e6dd859eebbf2104a0a7f6be Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable One problem with {va'o da'i} is that it is ambiguous with respect t= o counterfactuality, in that events which are hypothetical are permitted to= happen. In English, we have "If ... then ..." vs. "Were it = true that ... then ...". (My example is clunky because it's generi= c; in practice it's not necessarily that clunky.) In some Romance langu= ages we have different subjunctive tenses for this distinction: Latin would= use "si <present subjunctive> <indicative>" for the = non-counterfactual case and "si <imperfect subjunctive> <indi= cative>" for the counterfactual case. How can Lojban make this dist= inction?

mu'o mi'e .latros.

On Mon, Ap= r 11, 2011 at 1:22 PM, Michael Turniansky <mturniansky@gmail.com> wrote:
I know you were o= stensibly responding to Luke, but if you were
responding in fact to me, I was saying that va'o da'i IS the way to=
translate the natlang "if" (in the sense we've been discussin= g), but
that va'o by itself is not.
=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 --gejyspa


On Mon, Apr 11, 2011 at 11:07 AM, Alex Rozenshteyn <rpglover64@gmail.com> wrote:
> If {va'o} and {va'o da'i} are not the way to do it, how el= se would one
> translate a natlang "if"?=A0 It seems that lojban's logi= cal connectives are
> too narrow in scope for the purpose.
>
> Furthermore, it seems odd to me that while place , time ({pu}, {ca}, {= ba}),
> potentiality {{ca'a}, {ka'e}, etc), and contour/aspect can all= be inferred
> from context (at least as I understood the CLL), factuallity vs
> counterfactuallity cannot:=A0 if the statement {ta jelca} can mean eit= her
> "that is on fire" or "that is flammable", why can&= #39;t {ta jelca va'o lo mutce
> glare} be read as counterfactual?
>
> On Mon, Apr 11, 2011 at 10:30 AM, Luke Bergen <lukeabergen@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> That's a good point. =A0If I say {mi citka ba lo nu mi xagji} = it is possible
>> that there is causality baked in just via the fact that I'm st= ating that the
>> bridi {mi citka ba lo nu mi xagji} is true and NOT NECESSARILY tha= t {mi
>> citka} is true. =A0I wasn't asking specifically about {ri'= a} vs {mu'i} vs
>> etc... I was just asking if there was a causal connection between = the two
>> pieces. =A0It very well COULD be that {mi citka ba lo nu mi xagji}= and that
>> {mi citka} and {mi xagji} only happen to come one after the other.= =A0{mi
>> klama lo zdani ba lo nu mi pilno lo skami} doesn't necessarily= imply
>> anything other than "after I used the computer, I went home&q= uot;. =A0No mu'i,
>> ri'a, ni'i, etc... in that.
>> (also, I think you ciska in lojban. =A0If you're nu citka bau = la lojban then
>> your mom didn't teach you very good table manners =3Dp )
>>
>> On Mon, Apr 11, 2011 at 10:18 AM, Michael Turniansky
>> <mturniansky@gmail.com= > wrote:
>>>
>>> =A0I would argue (and my opinion isn't necessarily the &qu= ot;one true way",
>>> mind you) that yeah it makes a factual claim, as does the main= bridi.
>>> (Although I might simply phrase it "Having a pet dinosaur= ,...." (e.g.
>>> "... I go through a lot of Bronto Chow in week") =A0= In other words, I
>>> contend that with all BAI/FI'O constructions, you are maki= ng a factual
>>> claim. =A0"Mi citka bau la lojban" I am not just cla= iming that I write,
>>> but I'm writing in lojban. =A0Without the lojban part, the= sentence just
>>> isn't true. =A0If I say "mi gunka ki'u lo nu mi n= itcu lo jdini", if I
>>> don't need the money, the bridi is not true. =A0I am asser= ting "mi gunka
>>> .ije mi nitcu lo jdini". =A0"va'" is no dif= ferent in this regard.
>>> =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0--gejyspa
>>>
>>>
>>> On Mon, Apr 11, 2011 at 10:05 AM, John E Clifford <kali9putra@yahoo.com>
>>> wrote:
>>> > Taking all that into account is {va'o lonu mi ponse l= o dalpe'o
>>> > dinsauru} "Since
>>> > I have a pet dinosaur" or is it merely indeterminate= as to the truth of
>>> > the
>>> > condition?
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > ----- Original Message ----
>>> > From: Remo Dentato <rdentato@gmail.com>
>>> > To: lojban@goo= glegroups.com
>>> > Cc: Michael Turniansky <mturniansky@gmail.com>
>>> > Sent: Mon, April 11, 2011 8:20:14 AM
>>> > Subject: Re: [lojban] Regularization
>>> >
>>> > On Mon, Apr 11, 2011 at 2:49 PM, Michael Turniansky
>>> > <mturniansky@= gmail.com> wrote:
>>> >> =A0Counterfactual meaning not as things are, but as t= hey might be. =A0So,
>>> >> for example "va'o lo nu lo snime cu carvi ke= i mi ma'ekla le birju"->
>>> >> "I drive to the office in the snow" ("= in the situation of it snowing,
>>> >> I drive to the office") =A0"va'o da'= ;i lo nu lo snime cu carvi kei mi
>>> >> ma'ekla le birju" -> "if it snows, I= will drive to the office". =A0("in
>>> >> the theoretical situation of it snowing, I drive to t= he office")
>>> >> =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0Clearer?
>>> >
>>> > A little bit. I guess that in the translation of "if= I had a pet
>>> > dinosaur"
>>> >
>>> > http://www.lojban.org/tiki/ti= ki-download_wiki_attachment.php?attId=3D784
>>> >
>>> > Instead of {va'o lonu mi ponse lo dalpe'o dinsaur= u}) I should have
>>> > used {va'o da'i lonu mi ponse
>>> > lo dalpe'o dinsauru}
>>> >
>>> > --
>>> > You received this message because you are subscribed to t= he Google
>>> > Groups
>>> > "lojban" group.
>>> > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
>>> > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to
>>> > = lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
>>> > For more options, visit this group at
>>> > http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den.
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > --
>>> > You received this message because you are subscribed to t= he Google
>>> > Groups "lojban" group.
>>> > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
>>> > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to
>>> > = lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
>>> > For more options, visit this group at
>>> > http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den.
>>> >
>>> >
>>>
>>> --
>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Go= ogle Groups
>>> "lojban" group.
>>> To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
>>> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to
>>> lojba= n+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
>>> For more options, visit this group at
>>> http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den.
>>>
>>
>> --
>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google= Groups
>> "lojban" group.
>> To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
>> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to
>> lojban+un= subscribe@googlegroups.com.
>> For more options, visit this group at
>> http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den.
>
>
>
> --
> =A0=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0Alex R
>
> --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Gro= ups
> "lojban" group.
> To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to
> lojban+unsubs= cribe@googlegroups.com.
> For more options, visit this group at
> http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den.
>

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