From lojban+bncCIycn8S8DhCu-IztBBoEuujxbQ@googlegroups.com Mon Apr 11 10:37:05 2011 Received: from mail-qw0-f61.google.com ([209.85.216.61]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1Q9L2q-00007A-6H; Mon, 11 Apr 2011 10:37:04 -0700 Received: by qwh5 with SMTP id 5sf7342558qwh.16 for ; Mon, 11 Apr 2011 10:36:53 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version :in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:x-google-group-id:list-post :list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe :content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=j65sfOKnVHsLu8jXklHUkuESd1Pzr7GyHplNBTfSLpQ=; b=Bd6VQ2fmXiVZR7RgtpttB9mVUk1eWCc0J6EWBkN9kszI92BUhSHyhU+ULJu1MTEW0b gE/S7rcwK2Yw3CKE1Tvjzxgqjo56NFnRLuntS+6Tb32R+gUqVGzJDJmNo/qvO/Qf41XO jQg2rrFQ4zvZPOY55wkLRTcTf7pS0OXki3UAg= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date :message-id:subject:from:to:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:x-google-group-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender :list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; b=mRNApvV2fo/9gZoi54CzoNh9AOCRQfq7mopu7HjGavTNMcI2eGp63+CNrdLNDDc/8P 5Xg3PyF4IKrEuHt4JFyi3LVtE+7P5GI2zDC9KMMg81jeZQYA5CEw+yVLVbQscR4Yr3q1 Tf5U/4TCi8HQt4251x5SuRIa8MDBxa4JVk4tA= Received: by 10.224.54.12 with SMTP id o12mr265744qag.36.1302543406463; Mon, 11 Apr 2011 10:36:46 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.224.31.138 with SMTP id y10ls206396qac.7.p; Mon, 11 Apr 2011 10:36:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.224.189.67 with SMTP id dd3mr202290qab.19.1302543405931; Mon, 11 Apr 2011 10:36:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.224.189.67 with SMTP id dd3mr202289qab.19.1302543405921; Mon, 11 Apr 2011 10:36:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-qy0-f172.google.com (mail-qy0-f172.google.com [209.85.216.172]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id r34si788204qcp.5.2011.04.11.10.36.45 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Mon, 11 Apr 2011 10:36:45 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of mturniansky@gmail.com designates 209.85.216.172 as permitted sender) client-ip=209.85.216.172; Received: by qyk29 with SMTP id 29so1490275qyk.17 for ; Mon, 11 Apr 2011 10:36:45 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.229.247.78 with SMTP id mb14mr4354058qcb.21.1302543405582; Mon, 11 Apr 2011 10:36:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.229.96.135 with HTTP; Mon, 11 Apr 2011 10:36:45 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: <759730.3522.qm@web81303.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Date: Mon, 11 Apr 2011 13:36:45 -0400 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban] Regularization From: Michael Turniansky To: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Original-Sender: mturniansky@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of mturniansky@gmail.com designates 209.85.216.172 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=mturniansky@gmail.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Try this one: va'o da'i lo nu lo snime cu carvi kei je'unai mi ma'ekla le birju --gejyspa On Mon, Apr 11, 2011 at 1:32 PM, Ian Johnson wrote= : > One problem with {va'o da'i} is that it is ambiguous with respect to > counterfactuality, in that events which are hypothetical are permitted to > happen. In English, we have "If ... then ..." vs. "Were it true that ... > then ...". (My example is clunky because it's generic; in practice it's n= ot > necessarily that clunky.) In some Romance languages we have different > subjunctive tenses for this distinction: Latin would use "si subjunctive> " for the non-counterfactual case and "si > " for the counterfactual case. How ca= n > Lojban make this distinction? > > mu'o mi'e .latros. > > On Mon, Apr 11, 2011 at 1:22 PM, Michael Turniansky > wrote: >> >> I know you were ostensibly responding to Luke, but if you were >> responding in fact to me, I was saying that va'o da'i IS the way to >> translate the natlang "if" (in the sense we've been discussing), but >> that va'o by itself is not. >> =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 --gejyspa >> >> >> On Mon, Apr 11, 2011 at 11:07 AM, Alex Rozenshteyn >> wrote: >> > If {va'o} and {va'o da'i} are not the way to do it, how else would one >> > translate a natlang "if"?=A0 It seems that lojban's logical connective= s >> > are >> > too narrow in scope for the purpose. >> > >> > Furthermore, it seems odd to me that while place , time ({pu}, {ca}, >> > {ba}), >> > potentiality {{ca'a}, {ka'e}, etc), and contour/aspect can all be >> > inferred >> > from context (at least as I understood the CLL), factuallity vs >> > counterfactuallity cannot:=A0 if the statement {ta jelca} can mean eit= her >> > "that is on fire" or "that is flammable", why can't {ta jelca va'o lo >> > mutce >> > glare} be read as counterfactual? >> > >> > On Mon, Apr 11, 2011 at 10:30 AM, Luke Bergen >> > wrote: >> >> >> >> That's a good point. =A0If I say {mi citka ba lo nu mi xagji} it is >> >> possible >> >> that there is causality baked in just via the fact that I'm stating >> >> that the >> >> bridi {mi citka ba lo nu mi xagji} is true and NOT NECESSARILY that {= mi >> >> citka} is true. =A0I wasn't asking specifically about {ri'a} vs {mu'i= } vs >> >> etc... I was just asking if there was a causal connection between the >> >> two >> >> pieces. =A0It very well COULD be that {mi citka ba lo nu mi xagji} an= d >> >> that >> >> {mi citka} and {mi xagji} only happen to come one after the other. = =A0{mi >> >> klama lo zdani ba lo nu mi pilno lo skami} doesn't necessarily imply >> >> anything other than "after I used the computer, I went home". =A0No m= u'i, >> >> ri'a, ni'i, etc... in that. >> >> (also, I think you ciska in lojban. =A0If you're nu citka bau la lojb= an >> >> then >> >> your mom didn't teach you very good table manners =3Dp ) >> >> >> >> On Mon, Apr 11, 2011 at 10:18 AM, Michael Turniansky >> >> wrote: >> >>> >> >>> =A0I would argue (and my opinion isn't necessarily the "one true way= ", >> >>> mind you) that yeah it makes a factual claim, as does the main bridi= . >> >>> (Although I might simply phrase it "Having a pet dinosaur,...." (e.g= . >> >>> "... I go through a lot of Bronto Chow in week") =A0In other words, = I >> >>> contend that with all BAI/FI'O constructions, you are making a factu= al >> >>> claim. =A0"Mi citka bau la lojban" I am not just claiming that I wri= te, >> >>> but I'm writing in lojban. =A0Without the lojban part, the sentence = just >> >>> isn't true. =A0If I say "mi gunka ki'u lo nu mi nitcu lo jdini", if = I >> >>> don't need the money, the bridi is not true. =A0I am asserting "mi g= unka >> >>> .ije mi nitcu lo jdini". =A0"va'" is no different in this regard. >> >>> =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0--gejyspa >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> On Mon, Apr 11, 2011 at 10:05 AM, John E Clifford >> >>> >> >>> wrote: >> >>> > Taking all that into account is {va'o lonu mi ponse lo dalpe'o >> >>> > dinsauru} "Since >> >>> > I have a pet dinosaur" or is it merely indeterminate as to the tru= th >> >>> > of >> >>> > the >> >>> > condition? >> >>> > >> >>> > >> >>> > >> >>> > ----- Original Message ---- >> >>> > From: Remo Dentato >> >>> > To: lojban@googlegroups.com >> >>> > Cc: Michael Turniansky >> >>> > Sent: Mon, April 11, 2011 8:20:14 AM >> >>> > Subject: Re: [lojban] Regularization >> >>> > >> >>> > On Mon, Apr 11, 2011 at 2:49 PM, Michael Turniansky >> >>> > wrote: >> >>> >> =A0Counterfactual meaning not as things are, but as they might be= . >> >>> >> =A0So, >> >>> >> for example "va'o lo nu lo snime cu carvi kei mi ma'ekla le >> >>> >> birju"-> >> >>> >> "I drive to the office in the snow" ("in the situation of it >> >>> >> snowing, >> >>> >> I drive to the office") =A0"va'o da'i lo nu lo snime cu carvi kei= mi >> >>> >> ma'ekla le birju" -> "if it snows, I will drive to the office". >> >>> >> =A0("in >> >>> >> the theoretical situation of it snowing, I drive to the office") >> >>> >> =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0Clearer? >> >>> > >> >>> > A little bit. I guess that in the translation of "if I had a pet >> >>> > dinosaur" >> >>> > >> >>> > >> >>> > http://www.lojban.org/tiki/tiki-download_wiki_attachment.php?attId= =3D784 >> >>> > >> >>> > Instead of {va'o lonu mi ponse lo dalpe'o dinsauru}) I should have >> >>> > used {va'o da'i lonu mi ponse >> >>> > lo dalpe'o dinsauru} >> >>> > >> >>> > -- >> >>> > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >> >>> > Groups >> >>> > "lojban" group. >> >>> > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. >> >>> > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >> >>> > lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. >> >>> > For more options, visit this group at >> >>> > http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den. >> >>> > >> >>> > >> >>> > >> >>> > >> >>> > -- >> >>> > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >> >>> > Groups "lojban" group. >> >>> > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. >> >>> > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >> >>> > lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. >> >>> > For more options, visit this group at >> >>> > http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den. >> >>> > >> >>> > >> >>> >> >>> -- >> >>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >> >>> Groups >> >>> "lojban" group. >> >>> To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. >> >>> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >> >>> lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. >> >>> For more options, visit this group at >> >>> http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den. >> >>> >> >> >> >> -- >> >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >> >> Groups >> >> "lojban" group. >> >> To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. >> >> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >> >> lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. >> >> For more options, visit this group at >> >> http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den. >> > >> > >> > >> > -- >> > =A0=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0Alex R >> > >> > -- >> > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >> > Groups >> > "lojban" group. >> > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. >> > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >> > lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. >> > For more options, visit this group at >> > http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den. >> > >> >> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Group= s >> "lojban" group. >> To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. >> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >> lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. >> For more options, visit this group at >> http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den. >> > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "lojban" group. > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den. > --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. 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