From lojban+bncCML0xpmUARDbho3tBBoEI9onXQ@googlegroups.com Mon Apr 11 11:07:43 2011 Received: from mail-ww0-f61.google.com ([74.125.82.61]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1Q9LWT-0008Qw-O9; Mon, 11 Apr 2011 11:07:43 -0700 Received: by wwb13 with SMTP id 13sf6188270wwb.16 for ; Mon, 11 Apr 2011 11:07:31 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version :in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:x-google-group-id:list-post :list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe :content-type; bh=J3t5M9zPKActnzMUHiPTpqBnCrXk01ohiN0M5vddFVk=; b=W0HQq4lweMjdzHz9WkFtyuo33tbpcHIltR8O/TF88slKJd1DbM3NeLSTx/pTPtJNUi 9i+2nU77fF8Rylh8UOCVqBJX2kBIx6iLt5mqpGzC09iRdGOj2t57qM4I4BGIHmzzupju 71fqUweFUj7Q/+E1FhkJnzY3J+ppJAc1uMPIE= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date :message-id:subject:from:to:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:x-google-group-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender :list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; b=tA3249mRIvxcwI2tMmdAQJBzpBh7zVUhw83ZZv58/8XbeyKwZKj+bgK1fg4XkevmYL u52r5k1UGUEWjFI41kEgpGj4gDbXNnw37AHae6Cvxh2SvgVUv83b1/CTa8M0OgVhjeN/ TqDUerRyA7n4U2otdKqYoysGyaJR4gPraWDh0= Received: by 10.216.16.9 with SMTP id g9mr1264113weg.28.1302545243884; Mon, 11 Apr 2011 11:07:23 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.14.25.35 with SMTP id y35ls518343eey.2.p; Mon, 11 Apr 2011 11:07:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.216.28.204 with SMTP id g54mr359758wea.3.1302545241441; Mon, 11 Apr 2011 11:07:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.216.28.204 with SMTP id g54mr359757wea.3.1302545241396; Mon, 11 Apr 2011 11:07:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-wy0-f173.google.com (mail-wy0-f173.google.com [74.125.82.173]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id p5si740045weq.15.2011.04.11.11.07.21 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Mon, 11 Apr 2011 11:07:21 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of blindbravado@gmail.com designates 74.125.82.173 as permitted sender) client-ip=74.125.82.173; Received: by wyb42 with SMTP id 42so5999421wyb.32 for ; Mon, 11 Apr 2011 11:07:21 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.216.145.131 with SMTP id p3mr5015123wej.82.1302545240511; Mon, 11 Apr 2011 11:07:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.216.244.10 with HTTP; Mon, 11 Apr 2011 11:07:20 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: <759730.3522.qm@web81303.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Date: Mon, 11 Apr 2011 14:07:20 -0400 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban] Regularization From: Ian Johnson To: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Original-Sender: blindbravado@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of blindbravado@gmail.com designates 74.125.82.173 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=blindbravado@gmail.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=0016e6dab1855d553c04a0a872b6 --0016e6dab1855d553c04a0a872b6 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 That's a pretty hackish solution: "if, hypothetically, blah blah happened (it didn't, by the way), this would happen". And {va'o da'i je'unai} is 7 syllables anyway, that's getting a little bit extreme to be a viable solution. Still, {da'i} itself is not explicitly the not-necessarily-counterfactual case, so you haven't fully solved my issue either. {da'i je'u} isn't the other case either; {da'i je'u} is just pointless, actually. {da'i je'u cu'i} MIGHT help, I'm not sure. mu'o mi'e .latros. On Mon, Apr 11, 2011 at 1:36 PM, Michael Turniansky wrote: > Try this one: va'o da'i lo nu lo snime cu carvi kei je'unai mi > ma'ekla le birju > --gejyspa > > > > On Mon, Apr 11, 2011 at 1:32 PM, Ian Johnson > wrote: > > One problem with {va'o da'i} is that it is ambiguous with respect to > > counterfactuality, in that events which are hypothetical are permitted to > > happen. In English, we have "If ... then ..." vs. "Were it true that ... > > then ...". (My example is clunky because it's generic; in practice it's > not > > necessarily that clunky.) In some Romance languages we have different > > subjunctive tenses for this distinction: Latin would use "si > subjunctive> " for the non-counterfactual case and "si > > " for the counterfactual case. How > can > > Lojban make this distinction? > > > > mu'o mi'e .latros. > > > > On Mon, Apr 11, 2011 at 1:22 PM, Michael Turniansky < > mturniansky@gmail.com> > > wrote: > >> > >> I know you were ostensibly responding to Luke, but if you were > >> responding in fact to me, I was saying that va'o da'i IS the way to > >> translate the natlang "if" (in the sense we've been discussing), but > >> that va'o by itself is not. > >> --gejyspa > >> > >> > >> On Mon, Apr 11, 2011 at 11:07 AM, Alex Rozenshteyn < > rpglover64@gmail.com> > >> wrote: > >> > If {va'o} and {va'o da'i} are not the way to do it, how else would one > >> > translate a natlang "if"? It seems that lojban's logical connectives > >> > are > >> > too narrow in scope for the purpose. > >> > > >> > Furthermore, it seems odd to me that while place , time ({pu}, {ca}, > >> > {ba}), > >> > potentiality {{ca'a}, {ka'e}, etc), and contour/aspect can all be > >> > inferred > >> > from context (at least as I understood the CLL), factuallity vs > >> > counterfactuallity cannot: if the statement {ta jelca} can mean > either > >> > "that is on fire" or "that is flammable", why can't {ta jelca va'o lo > >> > mutce > >> > glare} be read as counterfactual? > >> > > >> > On Mon, Apr 11, 2011 at 10:30 AM, Luke Bergen > >> > wrote: > >> >> > >> >> That's a good point. If I say {mi citka ba lo nu mi xagji} it is > >> >> possible > >> >> that there is causality baked in just via the fact that I'm stating > >> >> that the > >> >> bridi {mi citka ba lo nu mi xagji} is true and NOT NECESSARILY that > {mi > >> >> citka} is true. I wasn't asking specifically about {ri'a} vs {mu'i} > vs > >> >> etc... I was just asking if there was a causal connection between the > >> >> two > >> >> pieces. It very well COULD be that {mi citka ba lo nu mi xagji} and > >> >> that > >> >> {mi citka} and {mi xagji} only happen to come one after the other. > {mi > >> >> klama lo zdani ba lo nu mi pilno lo skami} doesn't necessarily imply > >> >> anything other than "after I used the computer, I went home". No > mu'i, > >> >> ri'a, ni'i, etc... in that. > >> >> (also, I think you ciska in lojban. If you're nu citka bau la lojban > >> >> then > >> >> your mom didn't teach you very good table manners =p ) > >> >> > >> >> On Mon, Apr 11, 2011 at 10:18 AM, Michael Turniansky > >> >> wrote: > >> >>> > >> >>> I would argue (and my opinion isn't necessarily the "one true way", > >> >>> mind you) that yeah it makes a factual claim, as does the main > bridi. > >> >>> (Although I might simply phrase it "Having a pet dinosaur,...." > (e.g. > >> >>> "... I go through a lot of Bronto Chow in week") In other words, I > >> >>> contend that with all BAI/FI'O constructions, you are making a > factual > >> >>> claim. "Mi citka bau la lojban" I am not just claiming that I > write, > >> >>> but I'm writing in lojban. Without the lojban part, the sentence > just > >> >>> isn't true. If I say "mi gunka ki'u lo nu mi nitcu lo jdini", if I > >> >>> don't need the money, the bridi is not true. I am asserting "mi > gunka > >> >>> .ije mi nitcu lo jdini". "va'" is no different in this regard. > >> >>> --gejyspa > >> >>> > >> >>> > >> >>> On Mon, Apr 11, 2011 at 10:05 AM, John E Clifford > >> >>> > >> >>> wrote: > >> >>> > Taking all that into account is {va'o lonu mi ponse lo dalpe'o > >> >>> > dinsauru} "Since > >> >>> > I have a pet dinosaur" or is it merely indeterminate as to the > truth > >> >>> > of > >> >>> > the > >> >>> > condition? > >> >>> > > >> >>> > > >> >>> > > >> >>> > ----- Original Message ---- > >> >>> > From: Remo Dentato > >> >>> > To: lojban@googlegroups.com > >> >>> > Cc: Michael Turniansky > >> >>> > Sent: Mon, April 11, 2011 8:20:14 AM > >> >>> > Subject: Re: [lojban] Regularization > >> >>> > > >> >>> > On Mon, Apr 11, 2011 at 2:49 PM, Michael Turniansky > >> >>> > wrote: > >> >>> >> Counterfactual meaning not as things are, but as they might be. > >> >>> >> So, > >> >>> >> for example "va'o lo nu lo snime cu carvi kei mi ma'ekla le > >> >>> >> birju"-> > >> >>> >> "I drive to the office in the snow" ("in the situation of it > >> >>> >> snowing, > >> >>> >> I drive to the office") "va'o da'i lo nu lo snime cu carvi kei > mi > >> >>> >> ma'ekla le birju" -> "if it snows, I will drive to the office". > >> >>> >> ("in > >> >>> >> the theoretical situation of it snowing, I drive to the office") > >> >>> >> Clearer? > >> >>> > > >> >>> > A little bit. I guess that in the translation of "if I had a pet > >> >>> > dinosaur" > >> >>> > > >> >>> > > >> >>> > > http://www.lojban.org/tiki/tiki-download_wiki_attachment.php?attId=784 > >> >>> > > >> >>> > Instead of {va'o lonu mi ponse lo dalpe'o dinsauru}) I should have > >> >>> > used {va'o da'i lonu mi ponse > >> >>> > lo dalpe'o dinsauru} > >> >>> > > >> >>> > -- > >> >>> > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google > >> >>> > Groups > >> >>> > "lojban" group. > >> >>> > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > >> >>> > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > >> >>> > lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > >> >>> > For more options, visit this group at > >> >>> > http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. > >> >>> > > >> >>> > > >> >>> > > >> >>> > > >> >>> > -- > >> >>> > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google > >> >>> > Groups "lojban" group. > >> >>> > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > >> >>> > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > >> >>> > lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > >> >>> > For more options, visit this group at > >> >>> > http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. > >> >>> > > >> >>> > > >> >>> > >> >>> -- > >> >>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google > >> >>> Groups > >> >>> "lojban" group. > >> >>> To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > >> >>> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > >> >>> lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > >> >>> For more options, visit this group at > >> >>> http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. > >> >>> > >> >> > >> >> -- > >> >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google > >> >> Groups > >> >> "lojban" group. > >> >> To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > >> >> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > >> >> lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > >> >> For more options, visit this group at > >> >> http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > -- > >> > Alex R > >> > > >> > -- > >> > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google > >> > Groups > >> > "lojban" group. > >> > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > >> > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > >> > lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > >> > For more options, visit this group at > >> > http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. > >> > > >> > >> -- > >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google > Groups > >> "lojban" group. > >> To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > >> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > >> lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > >> For more options, visit this group at > >> http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. > >> > > > > -- > > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > > "lojban" group. > > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > > lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > > For more options, visit this group at > > http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. > > > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "lojban" group. > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. > > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. --0016e6dab1855d553c04a0a872b6 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable That's a pretty hackish solution: "if, hypothetically, blah blah h= appened (it didn't, by the way), this would happen". And {va'o= da'i je'unai} is 7 syllables anyway, that's getting a little b= it extreme to be a viable solution.

Still, {da'i} itself is not explicitly the not-necessarily-counterf= actual case, so you haven't fully solved my issue either. {da'i je&= #39;u} isn't the other case either; {da'i je'u} is just pointle= ss, actually. {da'i je'u cu'i} MIGHT help, I'm not sure.
mu'o mi'e .latros.

On Mon, Ap= r 11, 2011 at 1:36 PM, Michael Turniansky <mturniansky@gmail.com> wrote:
=A0Try this one:= va'o da'i lo nu lo snime cu carvi kei je'unai =A0mi
ma'ekla le birju
=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0--gejyspa



On Mon, Apr 11, 2011 at 1:32 PM, Ian Johnson <blindbravado@gmail.com> wrote:
> One problem with {va'o da'i} is that it is ambiguous with resp= ect to
> counterfactuality, in that events which are hypothetical are permitted= to
> happen. In English, we have "If ... then ..." vs. "Were= it true that ...
> then ...". (My example is clunky because it's generic; in pra= ctice it's not
> necessarily that clunky.) In some Romance languages we have different<= br> > subjunctive tenses for this distinction: Latin would use "si <= present
> subjunctive> <indicative>" for the non-counterfactual ca= se and "si
> <imperfect subjunctive> <indicative>" for the counter= factual case. How can
> Lojban make this distinction?
>
> mu'o mi'e .latros.
>
> On Mon, Apr 11, 2011 at 1:22 PM, Michael Turniansky <mturniansky@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>>
>> I know you were ostensibly responding to Luke, but if you were
>> responding in fact to me, I was saying that va'o da'i IS t= he way to
>> translate the natlang "if" (in the sense we've been = discussing), but
>> that va'o by itself is not.
>> =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 --gejyspa
>>
>>
>> On Mon, Apr 11, 2011 at 11:07 AM, Alex Rozenshteyn <rpglover64@gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>> > If {va'o} and {va'o da'i} are not the way to do i= t, how else would one
>> > translate a natlang "if"?=A0 It seems that lojban&#= 39;s logical connectives
>> > are
>> > too narrow in scope for the purpose.
>> >
>> > Furthermore, it seems odd to me that while place , time ({pu}= , {ca},
>> > {ba}),
>> > potentiality {{ca'a}, {ka'e}, etc), and contour/aspec= t can all be
>> > inferred
>> > from context (at least as I understood the CLL), factuallity = vs
>> > counterfactuallity cannot:=A0 if the statement {ta jelca} can= mean either
>> > "that is on fire" or "that is flammable",= why can't {ta jelca va'o lo
>> > mutce
>> > glare} be read as counterfactual?
>> >
>> > On Mon, Apr 11, 2011 at 10:30 AM, Luke Bergen <lukeabergen@gmail.com>
>> > wrote:
>> >>
>> >> That's a good point. =A0If I say {mi citka ba lo nu m= i xagji} it is
>> >> possible
>> >> that there is causality baked in just via the fact that I= 'm stating
>> >> that the
>> >> bridi {mi citka ba lo nu mi xagji} is true and NOT NECESS= ARILY that {mi
>> >> citka} is true. =A0I wasn't asking specifically about= {ri'a} vs {mu'i} vs
>> >> etc... I was just asking if there was a causal connection= between the
>> >> two
>> >> pieces. =A0It very well COULD be that {mi citka ba lo nu = mi xagji} and
>> >> that
>> >> {mi citka} and {mi xagji} only happen to come one after t= he other. =A0{mi
>> >> klama lo zdani ba lo nu mi pilno lo skami} doesn't ne= cessarily imply
>> >> anything other than "after I used the computer, I we= nt home". =A0No mu'i,
>> >> ri'a, ni'i, etc... in that.
>> >> (also, I think you ciska in lojban. =A0If you're nu c= itka bau la lojban
>> >> then
>> >> your mom didn't teach you very good table manners =3D= p )
>> >>
>> >> On Mon, Apr 11, 2011 at 10:18 AM, Michael Turniansky
>> >> <mturniansky@= gmail.com> wrote:
>> >>>
>> >>> =A0I would argue (and my opinion isn't necessaril= y the "one true way",
>> >>> mind you) that yeah it makes a factual claim, as does= the main bridi.
>> >>> (Although I might simply phrase it "Having a pet= dinosaur,...." (e.g.
>> >>> "... I go through a lot of Bronto Chow in week&q= uot;) =A0In other words, I
>> >>> contend that with all BAI/FI'O constructions, you= are making a factual
>> >>> claim. =A0"Mi citka bau la lojban" I am not= just claiming that I write,
>> >>> but I'm writing in lojban. =A0Without the lojban = part, the sentence just
>> >>> isn't true. =A0If I say "mi gunka ki'u l= o nu mi nitcu lo jdini", if I
>> >>> don't need the money, the bridi is not true. =A0I= am asserting "mi gunka
>> >>> .ije mi nitcu lo jdini". =A0"va'" = is no different in this regard.
>> >>> =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0--gejyspa
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>> On Mon, Apr 11, 2011 at 10:05 AM, John E Clifford
>> >>> <kali9putr= a@yahoo.com>
>> >>> wrote:
>> >>> > Taking all that into account is {va'o lonu m= i ponse lo dalpe'o
>> >>> > dinsauru} "Since
>> >>> > I have a pet dinosaur" or is it merely inde= terminate as to the truth
>> >>> > of
>> >>> > the
>> >>> > condition?
>> >>> >
>> >>> >
>> >>> >
>> >>> > ----- Original Message ----
>> >>> > From: Remo Dentato <rdentato@gmail.com>
>> >>> > To: l= ojban@googlegroups.com
>> >>> > Cc: Michael Turniansky <mturniansky@gmail.com>
>> >>> > Sent: Mon, April 11, 2011 8:20:14 AM
>> >>> > Subject: Re: [lojban] Regularization
>> >>> >
>> >>> > On Mon, Apr 11, 2011 at 2:49 PM, Michael Turnian= sky
>> >>> > <mtu= rniansky@gmail.com> wrote:
>> >>> >> =A0Counterfactual meaning not as things are,= but as they might be.
>> >>> >> =A0So,
>> >>> >> for example "va'o lo nu lo snime cu= carvi kei mi ma'ekla le
>> >>> >> birju"->
>> >>> >> "I drive to the office in the snow"= ; ("in the situation of it
>> >>> >> snowing,
>> >>> >> I drive to the office") =A0"va'= ;o da'i lo nu lo snime cu carvi kei mi
>> >>> >> ma'ekla le birju" -> "if it= snows, I will drive to the office".
>> >>> >> =A0("in
>> >>> >> the theoretical situation of it snowing, I d= rive to the office")
>> >>> >> =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0Clearer?
>> >>> >
>> >>> > A little bit. I guess that in the translation of= "if I had a pet
>> >>> > dinosaur"
>> >>> >
>> >>> >
>> >>> > http://www.lojban.or= g/tiki/tiki-download_wiki_attachment.php?attId=3D784
>> >>> >
>> >>> > Instead of {va'o lonu mi ponse lo dalpe'= o dinsauru}) I should have
>> >>> > used {va'o da'i lonu mi ponse
>> >>> > lo dalpe'o dinsauru}
>> >>> >
>> >>> > --
>> >>> > You received this message because you are subscr= ibed to the Google
>> >>> > Groups
>> >>> > "lojban" group.
>> >>> > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
>> >>> > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >> >>> > lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
>> >>> > For more options, visit this group at
>> >>> > http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den.
>> >>> >
>> >>> >
>> >>> >
>> >>> >
>> >>> > --
>> >>> > You received this message because you are subscr= ibed to the Google
>> >>> > Groups "lojban" group.
>> >>> > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
>> >>> > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >> >>> > lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
>> >>> > For more options, visit this group at
>> >>> > http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den.
>> >>> >
>> >>> >
>> >>>
>> >>> --
>> >>> You received this message because you are subscribed = to the Google
>> >>> Groups
>> >>> "lojban" group.
>> >>> To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
>> >>> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to
>> >>> lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
>> >>> For more options, visit this group at
>> >>> http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den.=
>> >>>
>> >>
>> >> --
>> >> You received this message because you are subscribed to t= he Google
>> >> Groups
>> >> "lojban" group.
>> >> To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
>> >> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to
>> >> = lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
>> >> For more options, visit this group at
>> >> http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den.
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > --
>> > =A0=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0Alex R
>> >
>> > --
>> > You received this message because you are subscribed to the G= oogle
>> > Groups
>> > "lojban" group.
>> > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
>> > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to
>> > lojb= an+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
>> > For more options, visit this group at
>> > http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den.
>> >
>>
>> --
>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google= Groups
>> "lojban" group.
>> To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
>> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to
>> lojban+un= subscribe@googlegroups.com.
>> For more options, visit this group at
>> http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den.
>>
>
> --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Gro= ups
> "lojban" group.
> To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to
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> For more options, visit this group at
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