From lojban+bncCNTPpI2KGxCPto3tBBoEZ3UKqQ@googlegroups.com Mon Apr 11 12:48:51 2011 Received: from mail-vw0-f61.google.com ([209.85.212.61]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1Q9N6L-0006EM-2Z; Mon, 11 Apr 2011 12:48:50 -0700 Received: by vws2 with SMTP id 2sf3368951vws.16 for ; Mon, 11 Apr 2011 12:48:39 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:x-beenthere:received-spf:x-authority-analysis :x-cloudmark-score:x-originating-ip:from:to:subject:date:user-agent :references:in-reply-to:mime-version:message-id:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:x-google-group-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender :list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type :content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition; bh=K32MjPeUH4MgR9cJUp5qtmMV7A1XN49HfBYCeyDj5lI=; b=VJNzxwhTHCD/gaPAkYyL/1Zib6xLNvdyZjxXcWhZINDNjoF/ao3uWqq+TQC4yHzuPj zqWXWFH3/CTVp6E9SmwgBXuZPUFBMgD1MDUoVscFVGMLxeNPyCdIxzvsDpNZqQ/LIFpB fxduK8KAitbPqmIdpM7Rij0Q87Xp99MhIaTu8= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:x-authority-analysis:x-cloudmark-score :x-originating-ip:from:to:subject:date:user-agent:references :in-reply-to:mime-version:message-id:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:x-google-group-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender :list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type :content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition; b=TCztqQ23zgNt3ATyC3NddHa9rjr28hf00WuZlGAOiK0VkIOoYsXKODwui8Gnj+iUU6 uB7WRPSwZxV51zLSyU+EfBpWvEhXfRM8mFuN9rv0CpOeWYInQ0zKJt7qEdOR26gV6czZ D8T3ej0VdbSHIkvvkG5ck2PUL5enh0Wgu5kSE= Received: by 10.220.101.75 with SMTP id b11mr689587vco.54.1302551311574; Mon, 11 Apr 2011 12:48:31 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.220.67.30 with SMTP id p30ls2046251vci.3.p; Mon, 11 Apr 2011 12:48:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.220.4.140 with SMTP id 12mr1452125vcr.15.1302551310442; Mon, 11 Apr 2011 12:48:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.220.4.140 with SMTP id 12mr1452124vcr.15.1302551310421; Mon, 11 Apr 2011 12:48:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from cdptpa-omtalb.mail.rr.com (cdptpa-omtalb.mail.rr.com [75.180.132.122]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTP id z15si213688vch.2.2011.04.11.12.48.29; Mon, 11 Apr 2011 12:48:29 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: neutral (google.com: 75.180.132.122 is neither permitted nor denied by best guess record for domain of phma@phma.optus.nu) client-ip=75.180.132.122; X-Authority-Analysis: v=1.1 cv=Nm3SJc7L3wlcojC9snsyzORkYWw1JOu3BeZkTeIwPUk= c=1 sm=0 a=6ti_TD8eFm8A:10 a=wPDyFdB5xvgA:10 a=IkcTkHD0fZMA:10 a=9o99xeNKNPYSmM5t9x5+TQ==:17 a=jBD0nLtjl8YQ484od4sA:9 a=i5G_tUGqX-pFIuiUEuoA:7 a=QEXdDO2ut3YA:10 a=9o99xeNKNPYSmM5t9x5+TQ==:117 X-Cloudmark-Score: 0 X-Originating-IP: 75.176.118.168 Received: from [75.176.118.168] ([75.176.118.168:59487] helo=chausie) by cdptpa-oedge02.mail.rr.com (envelope-from ) (ecelerity 2.2.3.46 r()) with ESMTP id 53/4F-11439-C0B53AD4; Mon, 11 Apr 2011 19:48:28 +0000 Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by chausie (Postfix) with ESMTP id D70951F31D for ; Mon, 11 Apr 2011 15:48:27 -0400 (EDT) From: Pierre Abbat To: lojban@googlegroups.com Subject: Re: [lojban] Regularization Date: Mon, 11 Apr 2011 15:48:11 -0400 User-Agent: KMail/1.9.6 (enterprise 0.20070907.709405) References: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: <201104111548.15731.phma@phma.optus.nu> X-Original-Sender: phma@phma.optus.nu X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=neutral (google.com: 75.180.132.122 is neither permitted nor denied by best guess record for domain of phma@phma.optus.nu) smtp.mail=phma@phma.optus.nu Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-7 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline On Monday 11 April 2011 13:32:49 Ian Johnson wrote: > One problem with {va'o da'i} is that it is ambiguous with respect to > counterfactuality, in that events which are hypothetical are permitted to > happen. In English, we have "If ... then ..." vs. "Were it true that ... > then ...". (My example is clunky because it's generic; in practice it's n= ot > necessarily that clunky.) In some Romance languages we have different > subjunctive tenses for this distinction: Latin would use "si subjunctive> " for the non-counterfactual case and "si > " for the counterfactual case. How ca= n > Lojban make this distinction? "da'i ru'e" vs. "da'i sai". Btw, "were" in "were it" is the imperfect=20 subjunctive, a form that in all other English verbs is indistinguishable fr= om=20 the past. Greek indicates the distinction another way. "=C5=E1=ED =F4=E1=E9=F2 =E3=EB= =F9=F3=F3=E1=E9=F2 =F4=F9=ED =E1=ED=E8=F1=F9=F0=F9=ED=20 =EB=E1=EB=F9 =EA=E1=E9 =F4=F9=ED =E1=E3=E3=E5=EB=F9=ED, =E1=E3=E1=F0=E7=ED = =E4=E5 =EC=E7 =E5=F7=F9, =E3=E5=E3=EF=ED=E1 =F7=E1=EB=EA=EF=F2 =E7=F7=F9=ED= =E7 =EA=F5=EC=E2=E1=EB=EF=ED=20 =E1=EB=E1=EB=E1=E6=EF=ED." (1 Cor. 13:1) The verb is in present subjunctive= (can't tell from=20 =EB=E1=EB=F9 that it's subjunctive, but some succeeding verbs make it clear= ); the=20 impossibility of the counterfactual is indicated by using "=E5=E1=ED" ("ife= ver")=20 instead of "=E5=E9" ("if"). The Reina-Valera puts the verbs all in past=20 subjunctive; I think the one in verse 3 should be in future subjunctive (th= e=20 Greek =F8=F9=EC=E9=F3=F9 is aorist subjunctive, which looks like future). T= he NVI has=20 present indicative, and the NIV has present, but I can't tell whether they'= re=20 indicative or subjunctive. Here's an attempt in Lojban: lo nu tavla sebau da'isai lo remna .e lo .angeli gi'enai prami cu se jalge = lo=20 nu binxo lo snaminra lastu .a lo cmoni kimvalo (Which reminds me: I need to create the git repo. I have the conversion scr= ipt=20 working.) An interesting use of =E5=E9 is in Hebrews 3:11: =D9=F2 =F9=EC=EF=F3=E1 =E5= =ED =F4=E7 =EF=F1=E3=E7 =EC=EF=F5, "=C5=E9=20 =E5=E9=F3=E5=EB=E5=F5=F3=EF=ED=F4=E1=E9 =E5=E9=F2 =E5=E7=ED =EA=E1=F4=E1=F0= =E1=F5=F3=E9=ED =EC=EF=F5". (As I swore in my wrath, "If they will=20 enter my rest".) The closest English construction (a strong prohibition cas= t=20 as a logical connection with one part missing) is "You stay out of my rest,= =20 or else!" Pierre --=20 The Black Garden on the Mountain is not on the Black Mountain. --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou= ps.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= ?hl=3Den.