From lojban+bncCOjSjrXVGBCu-6HtBBoEA5ClTQ@googlegroups.com Fri Apr 15 10:17:53 2011 Received: from mail-pv0-f189.google.com ([74.125.83.189]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1QAmeQ-0002MP-Lj; Fri, 15 Apr 2011 10:17:53 -0700 Received: by pvc22 with SMTP id 22sf881328pvc.16 for ; Fri, 15 Apr 2011 10:17:40 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version :in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:x-google-group-id:list-post :list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe :content-type; bh=MXNpkoAYKkxVvSiw2TMmgxVaqjRow61vPA22oTon0QE=; b=ZrDupZPolhuIyWbBCFi1D2MkEit453ER6EGThn98GK69XvJprrxodJ29RU+6lgADYl +dGKEilNQntKSCf0Y1adHtw3OwE2/l+aaK7jA1LukpjBVgINm+cNx9v6VxajE+XoZZAG qwPkXo1X3fef2cV9zw3UfjfIDeTzf4YU1Z8x4= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from :date:message-id:subject:to:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:x-google-group-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender :list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; b=uA4vHX42hkUyNNeDmqedIDqjspvrMmwFLQPR240LQLcPrR4pacQobafZ2UsfObDyk/ D0NQ99YsaDxfwg047ijaZoQ4tbF7eCjL7V2hcmWK464xQsVNDpwr3pZm4j4L4170XkAr NAcZp9ZB9nz26rv3/c06PPxPc9Y5Ers+QihX4= Received: by 10.68.55.230 with SMTP id v6mr218707pbp.12.1302887854407; Fri, 15 Apr 2011 10:17:34 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.68.49.8 with SMTP id q8ls1013918pbn.3.gmail; Fri, 15 Apr 2011 10:17:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.68.1.132 with SMTP id 4mr271600pbm.64.1302887853264; Fri, 15 Apr 2011 10:17:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.68.1.132 with SMTP id 4mr271599pbm.64.1302887853243; Fri, 15 Apr 2011 10:17:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-pw0-f51.google.com (mail-pw0-f51.google.com [209.85.160.51]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id h9si305716pbc.5.2011.04.15.10.17.33 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Fri, 15 Apr 2011 10:17:33 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of lukeabergen@gmail.com designates 209.85.160.51 as permitted sender) client-ip=209.85.160.51; Received: by pwi9 with SMTP id 9so1164457pwi.10 for ; Fri, 15 Apr 2011 10:17:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.68.17.35 with SMTP id l3mr2262881pbd.523.1302887853071; Fri, 15 Apr 2011 10:17:33 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.68.58.3 with HTTP; Fri, 15 Apr 2011 10:17:13 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: From: Luke Bergen Date: Fri, 15 Apr 2011 13:17:13 -0400 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban] selbri lo TAG sumti To: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Original-Sender: lukeabergen@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of lukeabergen@gmail.com designates 209.85.160.51 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=lukeabergen@gmail.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=bcaec5215fdbaa1f5e04a0f8379a --bcaec5215fdbaa1f5e04a0f8379a Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Right. In light of that understanding, really FA is the odd selma'o. It's like a TAG in some ways, but doesn't behave like one all the time. i.e. You can't have a naked FA (which results in things like "lo fa gerku" being absurd or non-grammatical) On Fri, Apr 15, 2011 at 1:03 PM, Michael Turniansky wrote: > Well, of course, it is, in some sense. The important point to > remember is that the FA series needs to be hooked after the selbri > with a be when you convert the selbri to sumti, and a BAI needs to > also, IF it has an argument attached to it, e.g. "lo klama be bai mi > [be'o] cu tordu" ( that which is forced-by-me-to-come is short), but > BAI without a sumti can act like more like a tense (PU/ZI), and can > appear "nakedly" in front of the selbri word, which can then be > converted to a sumti directly. > > --gejyspa > > > On Fri, Apr 15, 2011 at 10:58 AM, Luke Bergen > wrote: > > Ok, that makes sense. I think the heart of my confusion started when I > > learned BAI and thought "oh, so it's like FA". So that lead me into > > thoughts like "what in the hell is {lo fa gerku}". But I think I've got > it > > now (for the time being) ;p > > ki'e gejyspa > > > > On Fri, Apr 15, 2011 at 10:39 AM, Michael Turniansky < > mturniansky@gmail.com> > > wrote: > >> > >> I guess, if I am reading you correctly, you can certainly do that. > >> But it's really not all that complicated. Take these examples from > >> the CLL: > >> le ratcu cu citka le cirla > >> vi le vu panka > >> The rat eats the cheese > >> [short distance] the [long distance] park > >> The rat eats the cheese near the faraway park. > >> (10.12.4) > >> > >> lo ca nolraitru > >> be le fasygu'e cu na krecau > >> The-actual present noblest-governor > >> of the French country [false] is-hair-without. > >> The current king of France isn't bald. > >> (15.2.6) > >> > >> "lo TAG sumti" means nothing more or less like any other sumti, "X > >> du lo broda" -> "X broda" "X du lo TAG broda" -> "X TAG broda" The > >> tag (selbri tcita) comes along ("tags along" :-) with the selbri. So > >> when you say "mi bai klama ti", you have no problem with that, right? > >> "I was forced to come here". So you are a "forced-to-come" thing, > >> with destination here. So when I say "lo bai klama cu tordu", it just > >> means the "forced-to-come thing" is short. > >> > >> --gejyspa > >> > >> > >> On Sun, Apr 10, 2011 at 9:05 PM, Luke Bergen > >> wrote: > >> > Earlier I found a bridi of this form and upon being confused by it, I > >> > did > >> > some googleing and found this > >> > > >> > thread: > http://groups.google.com/group/lojban/browse_thread/thread/488b2cb9a22bb9d3 > >> > Low and behold, this topic has confused me before. For simplicity > sake, > >> > (I > >> > know it's not technically equivalent), could I read {broda lo TAG > brode} > >> > as > >> > {broda lo brode (oh and lo brode is TAG to something in the way that > >> > caku > >> > makes a bridi "ca" to "something")}? > >> > > >> > -- > >> > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google > >> > Groups > >> > "lojban" group. > >> > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > >> > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > >> > lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > >> > For more options, visit this group at > >> > http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. > >> > > >> > >> -- > >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google > Groups > >> "lojban" group. > >> To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > >> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > >> lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > >> For more options, visit this group at > >> http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. > >> > > > > -- > > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > > "lojban" group. > > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > > lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > > For more options, visit this group at > > http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. > > > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "lojban" group. > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. > > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. --bcaec5215fdbaa1f5e04a0f8379a Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Right. =A0In light of that understanding, really FA is the odd selma'o.= =A0It's like a TAG in some ways, but doesn't behave like one all t= he time. =A0i.e. You can't have a naked FA (which results in things lik= e "lo fa gerku" being absurd or non-grammatical)

On Fri, Apr 15, 2011 at 1:03 PM, Michael Tur= niansky <mtur= niansky@gmail.com> wrote:
=A0Well, of course, it is, in some sense. =A0The important point to
remember is that the FA series needs to be hooked after the selbri
with a be when you convert the selbri to sumti, and a BAI needs to
also, IF it has an argument attached to it, e.g. "lo klama be bai mi [be'o] cu tordu" ( that which is forced-by-me-to-come is short), b= ut
BAI without a sumti can act like more like a tense (PU/ZI), and can
appear "nakedly" in front of the selbri word, which can then be converted to a sumti directly.

=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0--gejyspa


On Fri, Apr 15, 2011 at 10:58 AM, Luke Bergen <lukeabergen@gmail.com> wrote:
> Ok, that makes sense. =A0I think the heart of my confusion started whe= n I
> learned BAI and thought "oh, so it's like FA". =A0So tha= t lead me into
> thoughts like "what in the hell is {lo fa gerku}". =A0But I = think I've got it
> now (for the time being) ;p
> ki'e gejyspa
>
> On Fri, Apr 15, 2011 at 10:39 AM, Michael Turniansky <mturniansky@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>>
>> =A0I guess, if I am reading you correctly, you can certainly do th= at.
>> But it's really not all that complicated. =A0Take these exampl= es from
>> the CLL:
>> le ratcu cu citka le cirla
>> =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0vi le vu panka
>> =A0 =A0The rat eats the cheese
>> =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0[short distance] the [long distance] park
>> =A0 =A0The rat eats the cheese near the faraway park.
>> (10.12.4)
>>
>> =A0lo ca nolraitru
>> =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0be le fasygu'e cu na krecau
>> =A0 =A0The-actual present noblest-governor
>> =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0of the French country [false] is-hair-without.
>> =A0 =A0The current king of France isn't bald.
>> (15.2.6)
>>
>> =A0"lo TAG sumti" means nothing more or less like any ot= her sumti, "X
>> du lo broda" -> "X broda" =A0"X du lo TAG b= roda" -> "X TAG broda" =A0The
>> tag (selbri tcita) comes along ("tags along" :-) with th= e selbri. =A0So
>> when you say "mi bai klama ti", you have no problem with= that, right?
>> "I was forced to come here". =A0So you are a "force= d-to-come" thing,
>> with destination here. =A0So when I say "lo bai klama cu tord= u", it just
>> means the "forced-to-come thing" is short.
>>
>> =A0 =A0 =A0 --gejyspa
>>
>>
>> On Sun, Apr 10, 2011 at 9:05 PM, Luke Bergen <lukeabergen@gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>> > Earlier I found a bridi of this form and upon being confused = by it, I
>> > did
>> > some googleing and found this
>> >
>> > thread:=A0http://groups.google= .com/group/lojban/browse_thread/thread/488b2cb9a22bb9d3
>> > Low and behold, this topic has confused me before. =A0For sim= plicity sake,
>> > (I
>> > know it's not technically=A0equivalent), could I read {br= oda lo TAG brode}
>> > as
>> > {broda lo brode (oh and lo brode is TAG to something in the w= ay that
>> > caku
>> > makes a bridi "ca" to "something")}?
>> >
>> > --
>> > You received this message because you are subscribed to the G= oogle
>> > Groups
>> > "lojban" group.
>> > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
>> > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to
>> > lojb= an+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
>> > For more options, visit this group at
>> > http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den.
>> >
>>
>> --
>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google= Groups
>> "lojban" group.
>> To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
>> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to
>> lojban+un= subscribe@googlegroups.com.
>> For more options, visit this group at
>> http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den.
>>
>
> --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Gro= ups
> "lojban" group.
> To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to
> lojban+unsubs= cribe@googlegroups.com.
> For more options, visit this group at
> http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den.
>

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