From lojban+bncCIycn8S8DhDLmaLtBBoEvR0NmA@googlegroups.com Fri Apr 15 11:22:20 2011 Received: from mail-vw0-f61.google.com ([209.85.212.61]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1QAnep-000824-Ma; Fri, 15 Apr 2011 11:22:20 -0700 Received: by vws2 with SMTP id 2sf1086011vws.16 for ; Fri, 15 Apr 2011 11:22:09 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version :in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:x-google-group-id:list-post :list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe :content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=qFF0BWJb38DTD8bFaRHIHK7JzAZqzcVUDtKSvxKTtvk=; b=R9ALZBVgKBFFacvu/uLZ/C//kd2pib9S/mPHClE5P5T62I0XtSu/RaUmxXWrQAT+B4 HX4jy35uQXBjUtHbL4xeHVUTcHzaWy3pMWqpP22Up/WgHcTpV776KghRK/21upT8EbXb s7zA1HEqeEUDaBuFdZDHOcBJ0bGFAqH3KOV8o= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date :message-id:subject:from:to:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:x-google-group-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender :list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; b=1YCGJgwPRsUMRRqcJZspUnKlad/J0Mo+cQ2o5HQOGp9CIrFjOegbEVmq+jUvz/448V gP6n9V8I9Q5EvZ89GBN2LryEKGWRzo73e2UbAa7iq5d4DRDtF5YdqqwTPch5CgVcn6NT eSlhl65FNrrzLtp+C6CsQEAXgmMejbUJmlI48= Received: by 10.220.90.210 with SMTP id j18mr204472vcm.24.1302891723240; Fri, 15 Apr 2011 11:22:03 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.220.113.208 with SMTP id b16ls228500vcq.0.gmail; Fri, 15 Apr 2011 11:22:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.220.54.207 with SMTP id r15mr613307vcg.5.1302891722053; Fri, 15 Apr 2011 11:22:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.220.54.207 with SMTP id r15mr613306vcg.5.1302891722037; Fri, 15 Apr 2011 11:22:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-qy0-f178.google.com (mail-qy0-f178.google.com [209.85.216.178]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id d1si208763vch.6.2011.04.15.11.22.01 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Fri, 15 Apr 2011 11:22:02 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of mturniansky@gmail.com designates 209.85.216.178 as permitted sender) client-ip=209.85.216.178; Received: by mail-qy0-f178.google.com with SMTP id 2so2249459qyk.16 for ; Fri, 15 Apr 2011 11:22:01 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.229.61.7 with SMTP id r7mr1740236qch.20.1302891721589; Fri, 15 Apr 2011 11:22:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.229.192.70 with HTTP; Fri, 15 Apr 2011 11:22:01 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: Date: Fri, 15 Apr 2011 14:22:01 -0400 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban] selbri lo TAG sumti From: Michael Turniansky To: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Original-Sender: mturniansky@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of mturniansky@gmail.com designates 209.85.216.178 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=mturniansky@gmail.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Well, actually, you can have a naked FA. It's perfectly permissible to say "la milos cu gerku fe" It's the same as "la milos cu gerku fe ku" which in turn is the same as "la milos cu gerku fe zo'e". The issue is simply you turn that selbri into a sumti you can only trail the FA, and you must do so with "be". "lo gerku be fe cu blabi" (the dog of some species is white). (btw, it's probably not very meaningful to say "lo gerku be fa X..." since you are already implicitly filling the x1 space, although I suppose "lo nolraitru be fa la tcarlz cu clani" means the same, or nearly so, as "lo nolraitru no'u la tcarlz cu clani") --gejyspa On Fri, Apr 15, 2011 at 1:17 PM, Luke Bergen wrote: > Right. =A0In light of that understanding, really FA is the odd selma'o. = =A0It's > like a TAG in some ways, but doesn't behave like one all the time. =A0i.e= . You > can't have a naked FA (which results in things like "lo fa gerku" being > absurd or non-grammatical) > > On Fri, Apr 15, 2011 at 1:03 PM, Michael Turniansky > wrote: >> >> =A0Well, of course, it is, in some sense. =A0The important point to >> remember is that the FA series needs to be hooked after the selbri >> with a be when you convert the selbri to sumti, and a BAI needs to >> also, IF it has an argument attached to it, e.g. "lo klama be bai mi >> [be'o] cu tordu" ( that which is forced-by-me-to-come is short), but >> BAI without a sumti can act like more like a tense (PU/ZI), and can >> appear "nakedly" in front of the selbri word, which can then be >> converted to a sumti directly. >> >> =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0--gejyspa >> >> >> On Fri, Apr 15, 2011 at 10:58 AM, Luke Bergen >> wrote: >> > Ok, that makes sense. =A0I think the heart of my confusion started whe= n I >> > learned BAI and thought "oh, so it's like FA". =A0So that lead me into >> > thoughts like "what in the hell is {lo fa gerku}". =A0But I think I've= got >> > it >> > now (for the time being) ;p >> > ki'e gejyspa >> > >> > On Fri, Apr 15, 2011 at 10:39 AM, Michael Turniansky >> > >> > wrote: >> >> >> >> =A0I guess, if I am reading you correctly, you can certainly do that. >> >> But it's really not all that complicated. =A0Take these examples from >> >> the CLL: >> >> le ratcu cu citka le cirla >> >> =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0vi le vu panka >> >> =A0 =A0The rat eats the cheese >> >> =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0[short distance] the [long distance] park >> >> =A0 =A0The rat eats the cheese near the faraway park. >> >> (10.12.4) >> >> >> >> =A0lo ca nolraitru >> >> =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0be le fasygu'e cu na krecau >> >> =A0 =A0The-actual present noblest-governor >> >> =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0of the French country [false] is-hair-without. >> >> =A0 =A0The current king of France isn't bald. >> >> (15.2.6) >> >> >> >> =A0"lo TAG sumti" means nothing more or less like any other sumti, "X >> >> du lo broda" -> "X broda" =A0"X du lo TAG broda" -> "X TAG broda" =A0= The >> >> tag (selbri tcita) comes along ("tags along" :-) with the selbri. =A0= So >> >> when you say "mi bai klama ti", you have no problem with that, right? >> >> "I was forced to come here". =A0So you are a "forced-to-come" thing, >> >> with destination here. =A0So when I say "lo bai klama cu tordu", it j= ust >> >> means the "forced-to-come thing" is short. >> >> >> >> =A0 =A0 =A0 --gejyspa >> >> >> >> >> >> On Sun, Apr 10, 2011 at 9:05 PM, Luke Bergen >> >> wrote: >> >> > Earlier I found a bridi of this form and upon being confused by it,= I >> >> > did >> >> > some googleing and found this >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > thread:=A0http://groups.google.com/group/lojban/browse_thread/threa= d/488b2cb9a22bb9d3 >> >> > Low and behold, this topic has confused me before. =A0For simplicit= y >> >> > sake, >> >> > (I >> >> > know it's not technically=A0equivalent), could I read {broda lo TAG >> >> > brode} >> >> > as >> >> > {broda lo brode (oh and lo brode is TAG to something in the way tha= t >> >> > caku >> >> > makes a bridi "ca" to "something")}? >> >> > >> >> > -- >> >> > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >> >> > Groups >> >> > "lojban" group. >> >> > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. >> >> > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >> >> > lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. >> >> > For more options, visit this group at >> >> > http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den. >> >> > >> >> >> >> -- >> >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >> >> Groups >> >> "lojban" group. >> >> To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. >> >> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >> >> lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. >> >> For more options, visit this group at >> >> http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den. >> >> >> > >> > -- >> > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >> > Groups >> > "lojban" group. >> > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. >> > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >> > lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. >> > For more options, visit this group at >> > http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den. >> > >> >> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Group= s >> "lojban" group. >> To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. >> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >> lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. >> For more options, visit this group at >> http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den. >> > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "lojban" group. > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den. > --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. 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