From lojban+bncCOjSjrXVGBDmm6LtBBoE-YGvNA@googlegroups.com Fri Apr 15 11:27:05 2011 Received: from mail-pv0-f189.google.com ([74.125.83.189]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1QAnjO-0000uy-J8; Fri, 15 Apr 2011 11:27:05 -0700 Received: by pvc22 with SMTP id 22sf898288pvc.16 for ; Fri, 15 Apr 2011 11:26:52 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version :in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:x-google-group-id:list-post :list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe :content-type; bh=P82OvAfhInKv4o5c085G9BGMYQGbovqeNJa263NbQOY=; b=tnvtP9vJlfEISU4zxKslqpo3VA0N1Jtq7sICC2cKPP5DbT79xkR4jtjWB2y5KbE+/F 362JRx12jqX+PdUkKmBSx2ttuH2Um2ejWe6Bsy3ujLmD2lqDG9mx925KIt9TdUtPkcXS yy2Wp/ZBfJSYJmoWfm3LZvu53AQMh/pYnSx7c= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from :date:message-id:subject:to:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:x-google-group-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender :list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; b=c2XP7vAXtt2//GVAq+GD2T+ojzN+NFE/3++TcwPMR2ZiVUQVHPQ2PIWNglepsktQhU CF8JiSidqgzAECm+nA2KpaODfIkGf/xYzzBlObfPEA6B6c1NtoeTsq1W+TZJsJFpRaWT DpAOHexjkZNIwVozJuZ/b0PzTE79Q0w4eawSs= Received: by 10.142.248.28 with SMTP id v28mr248314wfh.9.1302892006479; Fri, 15 Apr 2011 11:26:46 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.68.1.5 with SMTP id 5ls195611pbi.1.gmail; Fri, 15 Apr 2011 11:26:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.68.31.5 with SMTP id w5mr249897pbh.79.1302892005467; Fri, 15 Apr 2011 11:26:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.68.31.5 with SMTP id w5mr249895pbh.79.1302892005440; Fri, 15 Apr 2011 11:26:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-pw0-f50.google.com (mail-pw0-f50.google.com [209.85.160.50]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id g9si322708pbb.2.2011.04.15.11.26.45 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Fri, 15 Apr 2011 11:26:45 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of lukeabergen@gmail.com designates 209.85.160.50 as permitted sender) client-ip=209.85.160.50; Received: by pwi3 with SMTP id 3so3477902pwi.37 for ; Fri, 15 Apr 2011 11:26:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.68.6.227 with SMTP id e3mr2301891pba.121.1302892005212; Fri, 15 Apr 2011 11:26:45 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.68.58.3 with HTTP; Fri, 15 Apr 2011 11:26:25 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: From: Luke Bergen Date: Fri, 15 Apr 2011 14:26:25 -0400 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban] selbri lo TAG sumti To: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Original-Sender: lukeabergen@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of lukeabergen@gmail.com designates 209.85.160.50 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=lukeabergen@gmail.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=bcaec5215bfb26c27f04a0f92f2f --bcaec5215bfb26c27f04a0f92f2f Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Yeah, I've found {be fa} to be a handy short-hand from time to time. And I meant that {mi fe klama lo zarci} is nonsensical in a way that {mi TAG klama lo zarci} is not. On Fri, Apr 15, 2011 at 2:22 PM, Michael Turniansky wrote: > Well, actually, you can have a naked FA. It's perfectly permissible > to say "la milos cu gerku fe" It's the same as "la milos cu gerku fe > ku" which in turn is the same as "la milos cu gerku fe zo'e". The > issue is simply you turn that selbri into a sumti you can only trail > the FA, and you must do so with "be". "lo gerku be fe cu blabi" (the > dog of some species is white). (btw, it's probably not very > meaningful to say "lo gerku be fa X..." since you are already > implicitly filling the x1 space, although I suppose "lo nolraitru be > fa la tcarlz cu clani" means the same, or nearly so, as "lo nolraitru > no'u la tcarlz cu clani") > --gejyspa > > On Fri, Apr 15, 2011 at 1:17 PM, Luke Bergen > wrote: > > Right. In light of that understanding, really FA is the odd selma'o. > It's > > like a TAG in some ways, but doesn't behave like one all the time. i.e. > You > > can't have a naked FA (which results in things like "lo fa gerku" being > > absurd or non-grammatical) > > > > On Fri, Apr 15, 2011 at 1:03 PM, Michael Turniansky < > mturniansky@gmail.com> > > wrote: > >> > >> Well, of course, it is, in some sense. The important point to > >> remember is that the FA series needs to be hooked after the selbri > >> with a be when you convert the selbri to sumti, and a BAI needs to > >> also, IF it has an argument attached to it, e.g. "lo klama be bai mi > >> [be'o] cu tordu" ( that which is forced-by-me-to-come is short), but > >> BAI without a sumti can act like more like a tense (PU/ZI), and can > >> appear "nakedly" in front of the selbri word, which can then be > >> converted to a sumti directly. > >> > >> --gejyspa > >> > >> > >> On Fri, Apr 15, 2011 at 10:58 AM, Luke Bergen > >> wrote: > >> > Ok, that makes sense. I think the heart of my confusion started when > I > >> > learned BAI and thought "oh, so it's like FA". So that lead me into > >> > thoughts like "what in the hell is {lo fa gerku}". But I think I've > got > >> > it > >> > now (for the time being) ;p > >> > ki'e gejyspa > >> > > >> > On Fri, Apr 15, 2011 at 10:39 AM, Michael Turniansky > >> > > >> > wrote: > >> >> > >> >> I guess, if I am reading you correctly, you can certainly do that. > >> >> But it's really not all that complicated. Take these examples from > >> >> the CLL: > >> >> le ratcu cu citka le cirla > >> >> vi le vu panka > >> >> The rat eats the cheese > >> >> [short distance] the [long distance] park > >> >> The rat eats the cheese near the faraway park. > >> >> (10.12.4) > >> >> > >> >> lo ca nolraitru > >> >> be le fasygu'e cu na krecau > >> >> The-actual present noblest-governor > >> >> of the French country [false] is-hair-without. > >> >> The current king of France isn't bald. > >> >> (15.2.6) > >> >> > >> >> "lo TAG sumti" means nothing more or less like any other sumti, "X > >> >> du lo broda" -> "X broda" "X du lo TAG broda" -> "X TAG broda" The > >> >> tag (selbri tcita) comes along ("tags along" :-) with the selbri. So > >> >> when you say "mi bai klama ti", you have no problem with that, right? > >> >> "I was forced to come here". So you are a "forced-to-come" thing, > >> >> with destination here. So when I say "lo bai klama cu tordu", it > just > >> >> means the "forced-to-come thing" is short. > >> >> > >> >> --gejyspa > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> On Sun, Apr 10, 2011 at 9:05 PM, Luke Bergen > >> >> wrote: > >> >> > Earlier I found a bridi of this form and upon being confused by it, > I > >> >> > did > >> >> > some googleing and found this > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> > thread: > http://groups.google.com/group/lojban/browse_thread/thread/488b2cb9a22bb9d3 > >> >> > Low and behold, this topic has confused me before. For simplicity > >> >> > sake, > >> >> > (I > >> >> > know it's not technically equivalent), could I read {broda lo TAG > >> >> > brode} > >> >> > as > >> >> > {broda lo brode (oh and lo brode is TAG to something in the way > that > >> >> > caku > >> >> > makes a bridi "ca" to "something")}? > >> >> > > >> >> > -- > >> >> > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google > >> >> > Groups > >> >> > "lojban" group. > >> >> > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > >> >> > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > >> >> > lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > >> >> > For more options, visit this group at > >> >> > http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. > >> >> > > >> >> > >> >> -- > >> >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google > >> >> Groups > >> >> "lojban" group. > >> >> To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > >> >> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > >> >> lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > >> >> For more options, visit this group at > >> >> http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. > >> >> > >> > > >> > -- > >> > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google > >> > Groups > >> > "lojban" group. > >> > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > >> > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > >> > lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > >> > For more options, visit this group at > >> > http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. > >> > > >> > >> -- > >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google > Groups > >> "lojban" group. > >> To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > >> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > >> lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > >> For more options, visit this group at > >> http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. > >> > > > > -- > > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > > "lojban" group. > > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > > lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > > For more options, visit this group at > > http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. > > > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "lojban" group. > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. > > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. --bcaec5215bfb26c27f04a0f92f2f Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Yeah, I've found {be fa} to be a handy short-hand from time to time. = =A0And I meant that {mi fe klama lo zarci} is nonsensical in a way that {mi= TAG klama lo zarci} is not. =A0

On Fri, = Apr 15, 2011 at 2:22 PM, Michael Turniansky <mturniansky@gmail.com> wrot= e:
=A0Well, actually, you can have a naked FA= . =A0It's perfectly permissible
to say "la milos cu gerku fe" =A0It's the same as "la mi= los cu gerku fe
ku" which in turn is the same as "la milos cu gerku fe zo'e&q= uot;. =A0The
issue is simply you turn that selbri into a sumti you can only trail
the FA, and you must do so with "be". =A0"lo gerku be fe cu = blabi" (the
dog of some species is white). =A0(btw, it's probably not very
meaningful to say "lo gerku be fa X..." since you are already
implicitly filling the x1 space, although I suppose "lo nolraitru be fa la tcarlz cu clani" means the same, or nearly so, =A0as "lo no= lraitru
no'u la tcarlz cu clani")
=A0 =A0 =A0 --gejyspa

On Fri, Apr 15, 2011 at 1:17 PM, Luke Bergen <lukeabergen@gmail.com> wrote:
> Right. =A0In light of that understanding, really FA is the odd selma&#= 39;o. =A0It's
> like a TAG in some ways, but doesn't behave like one all the time.= =A0i.e. You
> can't have a naked FA (which results in things like "lo fa ge= rku" being
> absurd or non-grammatical)
>
> On Fri, Apr 15, 2011 at 1:03 PM, Michael Turniansky <mturniansky@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>>
>> =A0Well, of course, it is, in some sense. =A0The important point t= o
>> remember is that the FA series needs to be hooked after the selbri=
>> with a be when you convert the selbri to sumti, and a BAI needs to=
>> also, IF it has an argument attached to it, e.g. "lo klama be= bai mi
>> [be'o] cu tordu" ( that which is forced-by-me-to-come is = short), but
>> BAI without a sumti can act like more like a tense (PU/ZI), and ca= n
>> appear "nakedly" in front of the selbri word, which can = then be
>> converted to a sumti directly.
>>
>> =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0--gejyspa
>>
>>
>> On Fri, Apr 15, 2011 at 10:58 AM, Luke Bergen <lukeabergen@gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>> > Ok, that makes sense. =A0I think the heart of my confusion st= arted when I
>> > learned BAI and thought "oh, so it's like FA". = =A0So that lead me into
>> > thoughts like "what in the hell is {lo fa gerku}". = =A0But I think I've got
>> > it
>> > now (for the time being) ;p
>> > ki'e gejyspa
>> >
>> > On Fri, Apr 15, 2011 at 10:39 AM, Michael Turniansky
>> > <mturniansky@gmai= l.com>
>> > wrote:
>> >>
>> >> =A0I guess, if I am reading you correctly, you can certai= nly do that.
>> >> But it's really not all that complicated. =A0Take the= se examples from
>> >> the CLL:
>> >> le ratcu cu citka le cirla
>> >> =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0vi le vu panka
>> >> =A0 =A0The rat eats the cheese
>> >> =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0[short distance] the [long distance] park<= br> >> >> =A0 =A0The rat eats the cheese near the faraway park.
>> >> (10.12.4)
>> >>
>> >> =A0lo ca nolraitru
>> >> =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0be le fasygu'e cu na krecau
>> >> =A0 =A0The-actual present noblest-governor
>> >> =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0of the French country [false] is-hair-with= out.
>> >> =A0 =A0The current king of France isn't bald.
>> >> (15.2.6)
>> >>
>> >> =A0"lo TAG sumti" means nothing more or less li= ke any other sumti, "X
>> >> du lo broda" -> "X broda" =A0"X du= lo TAG broda" -> "X TAG broda" =A0The
>> >> tag (selbri tcita) comes along ("tags along" :-= ) with the selbri. =A0So
>> >> when you say "mi bai klama ti", you have no pro= blem with that, right?
>> >> "I was forced to come here". =A0So you are a &q= uot;forced-to-come" thing,
>> >> with destination here. =A0So when I say "lo bai klam= a cu tordu", it just
>> >> means the "forced-to-come thing" is short.
>> >>
>> >> =A0 =A0 =A0 --gejyspa
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> On Sun, Apr 10, 2011 at 9:05 PM, Luke Bergen <lukeabergen@gmail.com>
>> >> wrote:
>> >> > Earlier I found a bridi of this form and upon being = confused by it, I
>> >> > did
>> >> > some googleing and found this
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> > thread:=A0http://grou= ps.google.com/group/lojban/browse_thread/thread/488b2cb9a22bb9d3
>> >> > Low and behold, this topic has confused me before. = =A0For simplicity
>> >> > sake,
>> >> > (I
>> >> > know it's not technically=A0equivalent), could I= read {broda lo TAG
>> >> > brode}
>> >> > as
>> >> > {broda lo brode (oh and lo brode is TAG to something= in the way that
>> >> > caku
>> >> > makes a bridi "ca" to "something"= ;)}?
>> >> >
>> >> > --
>> >> > You received this message because you are subscribed= to the Google
>> >> > Groups
>> >> > "lojban" group.
>> >> > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
>> >> > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to
>> >> > lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
>> >> > For more options, visit this group at
>> >> > http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den.=
>> >> >
>> >>
>> >> --
>> >> You received this message because you are subscribed to t= he Google
>> >> Groups
>> >> "lojban" group.
>> >> To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
>> >> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to
>> >> = lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
>> >> For more options, visit this group at
>> >> http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den.
>> >>
>> >
>> > --
>> > You received this message because you are subscribed to the G= oogle
>> > Groups
>> > "lojban" group.
>> > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
>> > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to
>> > lojb= an+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
>> > For more options, visit this group at
>> > http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den.
>> >
>>
>> --
>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google= Groups
>> "lojban" group.
>> To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
>> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to
>> lojban+un= subscribe@googlegroups.com.
>> For more options, visit this group at
>> http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den.
>>
>
> --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Gro= ups
> "lojban" group.
> To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to
> lojban+unsubs= cribe@googlegroups.com.
> For more options, visit this group at
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>

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