From lojban+bncCOib25n_BhCcrcDtBBoEi0gnJg@googlegroups.com Thu Apr 21 04:36:17 2011 Received: from mail-qw0-f61.google.com ([209.85.216.61]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1QCsB6-0008Sn-PV; Thu, 21 Apr 2011 04:36:15 -0700 Received: by qwh5 with SMTP id 5sf2700850qwh.16 for ; Thu, 21 Apr 2011 04:36:02 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version:sender :in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:x-google-group-id:list-post :list-help:list-archive:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=UWdp7KD2T4aWyt72KFuzAuyj0aRve+TCTqjJyD9h7R8=; b=58mXWrm0BJ6xkBMZHM/9Os1HK7g+1tsW1uomxLrMeAm/NKwUj3UJ1Br3QbfymjcBnM di5fdKpT/gH2M1plFTg0GxslXwZTlbZpxVN+X4XlCv1nMFFnBaEWpZB8q1YxVzkb8seL 4yBhZzWsMi2rkeCKh8TvS7bD7KW+BPxSOuFWk= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references :date:message-id:subject:from:to:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:x-google-group-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; b=4KRp5imUGzR0H0LWDbMkdy6wu+IXW4hpFtBVWHjlaNg0WjtogG4umDum7/vgeG540d N+pcrV4CKXhFb5YMoauvLcobVtWXYCr+tYeFCRzD4Thg4CeWN4ZVbYALzI0mYL8y4mlM OgEyAa4Z2dW8PDsGzk7MjUKCKLoa4t+dHUkUE= Received: by 10.229.126.219 with SMTP id d27mr1008694qcs.13.1303385756595; Thu, 21 Apr 2011 04:35:56 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.229.229.132 with SMTP id ji4ls721328qcb.1.gmail; Thu, 21 Apr 2011 04:35:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.229.27.81 with SMTP id h17mr607516qcc.9.1303385755731; Thu, 21 Apr 2011 04:35:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.229.27.81 with SMTP id h17mr607515qcc.9.1303385755692; Thu, 21 Apr 2011 04:35:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-qy0-f173.google.com (mail-qy0-f173.google.com [209.85.216.173]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id n4si377371qcg.7.2011.04.21.04.35.55 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Thu, 21 Apr 2011 04:35:55 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of rpglover64@gmail.com designates 209.85.216.173 as permitted sender) client-ip=209.85.216.173; Received: by qyk36 with SMTP id 36so3671592qyk.11 for ; Thu, 21 Apr 2011 04:35:55 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.224.214.197 with SMTP id hb5mr2000190qab.176.1303385755252; Thu, 21 Apr 2011 04:35:55 -0700 (PDT) Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.224.28.203 with HTTP; Thu, 21 Apr 2011 04:35:55 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: Date: Thu, 21 Apr 2011 07:35:55 -0400 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban] Contesting a lujvo From: ".arpis." To: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Original-Sender: rpglover64@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of rpglover64@gmail.com designates 209.85.216.173 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=rpglover64@gmail.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=20cf300fb29ff276e404a16c24cd --20cf300fb29ff276e404a16c24cd Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 No, it doesn't, but I mean that the distinction over whether the programmer is human or computer may become more important than the distinction over whether the intended consumer is human or computer, prompting a possibility for drift. Have any solutions to the possible issues been proposed/considered? Drift is one concern, but it's one of the easiest ones to deal with: simply update the definition. It's not particularly controversial. Another (more painful issue) is who decides what a term applying to a group of people means: e.g. atheists tend to define "atheism" as a lack of belief in any god, while people who don't identify as atheist tend to define "atheism" as a disbelief in (usually the Abrahamic) god. On Thu, Apr 21, 2011 at 7:22 AM, Ian Johnson wrote: > It doesn't say the programmer is human. > > As for this problem in general, though, yeah, I agree that there are some > possible issues here. Drift with relatively specific words is a concern. > > mu'o mi'e .latros. > > On Thu, Apr 21, 2011 at 6:49 AM, .arpis. wrote: > >> Optimistic, but unlikely. Under your solution, {ri'orcinki} would mean >> effectively the same thing as {crino cinki}, leaving the two parties with >> words longer by a syllable. If the dye-ers were willing to go with a longer >> lujvo, the contest probably wouldn't have happened in the first place. >> >> As another example, currently {sampla} refers to the relationship "some >> programmer writing a computer program that does something". >> >> But come the singularity, {skami platu} may be used more frequently to >> refer to plans made by a computer, not for a computer; the meaning of the >> lujvo {sampla} might become increasingly archaic, and there may be a push to >> adopt the meaning "some computer wrote some plan/design to do something". >> >> Lojban, being a prescribed language, would require the BPFK to decide what >> the meaning was, but what factors would influence its decision? >> >> >> On Thu, Apr 21, 2011 at 6:33 AM, tijlan wrote: >> >>> On 21 April 2011 10:01, .arpis. wrote: >>> > Let's say that, in lojbanistan, {ri'orcinki} refers to a particular >>> species >>> > of insects, notable for their green color. Now, let's imagine the >>> dyeing >>> > industry discovering that another insect, not particularly notable in >>> > appearance, effectively produces a green dye when properly treated. How >>> > would the dyeing industry contest the meaning of {ri'orcinki}, if it >>> should >>> > so choose? >>> >>> One possible scenario is that each party create a sufficiently >>> specific and distinct lujvo for their own use -- such as >>> {ri'orpilcinki} and {ri'opracinki} -- and then agree to expand the >>> meaning of {ri'orcinki} -- such as "an insect that has to do with >>> green color" -- so as to make it a hypernym to the new lujvos. If then >>> {ri'orcinki} was unserviceably generic and vague, it would naturally >>> fall out of use. >>> >>> >>> mu'o >>> >>> -- >>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >>> "lojban" group. >>> To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. >>> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >>> lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. >>> For more options, visit this group at >>> http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. >>> >>> >> >> >> -- >> mu'o mi'e .arpis. >> >> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >> "lojban" group. >> To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. >> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >> lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. >> For more options, visit this group at >> http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. >> > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "lojban" group. > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. > -- mu'o mi'e .arpis. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. --20cf300fb29ff276e404a16c24cd Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable No, it doesn't, but I mean that the distinction over whether the progra= mmer is human or computer may become more important than the distinction ov= er whether the intended consumer is human or computer, prompting a possibil= ity for drift.

Have any solutions to the possible issues been proposed/considered?
= Drift is one concern, but it's one of the easiest ones to deal with: si= mply update the definition. It's not particularly controversial.
Another (more painful issue) is who decides what a term applying to a group= of people means: e.g. atheists tend to define "atheism" as a lac= k of belief in any god, while people who don't identify as atheist tend= to define "atheism" as a disbelief in (usually the Abrahamic) go= d.

On Thu, Apr 21, 2011 at 7:22 AM, Ian Johnson= <blindbrava= do@gmail.com> wrote:
It doesn't say the programmer is human.

As for this problem in g= eneral, though, yeah, I agree that there are some possible issues here. Dri= ft with relatively specific words is a concern.

mu'o mi'e .= latros.

On Thu, Ap= r 21, 2011 at 6:49 AM, .arpis. <rpglover64+jbobau@gmail.com> wrote:
Optimistic, but unlikely.=A0 Under your solution, {ri'orcinki} would me= an effectively the same thing as {crino cinki}, leaving the two parties wit= h words longer by a syllable.=A0 If the dye-ers were willing to go with a l= onger lujvo, the contest probably wouldn't have happened in the first p= lace.

As another example, currently {sampla} refers to the relationship "= ;some programmer writing a computer program that does something".
<= br>But come the singularity, {skami platu} may be used more frequently to r= efer to plans made by a computer, not for a computer; the meaning of the lu= jvo {sampla} might become increasingly archaic, and there may be a push to = adopt the meaning "some computer wrote some plan/design to do somethin= g".

Lojban, being a prescribed language, would require the BPFK to decide w= hat the meaning was, but what factors would influence its decision?


On Thu, Apr 21, 2011 at 6:3= 3 AM, tijlan <jbotijlan@gmail.com> wrote:
On 21 April 2011 10:01, .arpis. <rpglover64+= jbobau@gmail.com> wrote:
> Let's say that, in lojbanistan, {ri'orcinki} refers to a parti= cular species
> of insects, notable for their green color. Now, let's imagine the = dyeing
> industry discovering that another insect, not particularly notable in<= br> > appearance, effectively produces a green dye when properly treated. Ho= w
> would the dyeing industry contest the meaning of {ri'orcinki}, if = it should
> so choose?

One possible scenario is that each party create a sufficiently
specific and distinct lujvo for their own use -- such as
{ri'orpilcinki} and {ri'opracinki} -- and then agree to expand the<= br> meaning of {ri'orcinki} -- such as "an insect that has to do with<= br> green color" -- so as to make it a hypernym to the new lujvos. If then=
{ri'orcinki} was unserviceably generic and vague, it would naturally fall out of use.


mu'o

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=
--
mu'o mi'e .arpi= s.

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mu'o mi= 'e .arpis.

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