From lojban+bncCNf8pM-bDBCs78ftBBoEpGdZkQ@googlegroups.com Fri Apr 22 14:48:45 2011 Received: from mail-yi0-f61.google.com ([209.85.218.61]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1QDODQ-0002lX-EC; Fri, 22 Apr 2011 14:48:44 -0700 Received: by yie19 with SMTP id 19sf1715412yie.16 for ; Fri, 22 Apr 2011 14:48:34 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version:sender :in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:x-google-group-id:list-post :list-help:list-archive:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; bh=30kCW1fiVB2a1CSIWAjueBUwxUre78niIUoLKtyFG+w=; b=48ENvUYwlGFcJN+LDQ4kxnVc8hheHd9/IYgcJPKMGc/ipkmyeEt7V7eJkafvIVrIzR zTOj1v0HiqsiyfybHTYeuQyBfRinjTMpcqIfdOomAW7ctkKPc5WEYdusDHawA99je418 3KghFk+m4RIhDUAjafWgxmY5pqpF4Ns5rDtVU= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references :date:message-id:subject:from:to:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:x-google-group-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; b=mnB2PGp+Y//oUSECePAztuCET3B4DigQ8hGgGOS+G/hJ4W0S+iO4zU4XV9v39K5sMg u3P0SFPLvEWtOg4so/S5gtR/tKJXJMMPy2qQwP6m9NyCsvhKSpp5GcK23vL7TooHOV+5 EkJuVnJvZCu6Q81fASVYp4M656o0ZyAsLEP/c= Received: by 10.101.168.31 with SMTP id v31mr185566ano.19.1303508908259; Fri, 22 Apr 2011 14:48:28 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.101.163.24 with SMTP id q24ls476731ano.2.gmail; Fri, 22 Apr 2011 14:48:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.100.233.18 with SMTP id f18mr769002anh.10.1303508906925; Fri, 22 Apr 2011 14:48:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.100.233.18 with SMTP id f18mr769001anh.10.1303508906905; Fri, 22 Apr 2011 14:48:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-gy0-f169.google.com (mail-gy0-f169.google.com [209.85.160.169]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id c32si1003396anc.0.2011.04.22.14.48.26 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Fri, 22 Apr 2011 14:48:26 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of paskios@gmail.com designates 209.85.160.169 as permitted sender) client-ip=209.85.160.169; Received: by gyd8 with SMTP id 8so260459gyd.28 for ; Fri, 22 Apr 2011 14:48:26 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.236.77.200 with SMTP id d48mr1486967yhe.460.1303508906511; Fri, 22 Apr 2011 14:48:26 -0700 (PDT) Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.147.39.16 with HTTP; Fri, 22 Apr 2011 14:48:26 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: Date: Fri, 22 Apr 2011 22:48:26 +0100 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban] Contesting a lujvo From: tijlan To: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Original-Sender: paskios@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of paskios@gmail.com designates 209.85.160.169 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=paskios@gmail.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-2022-JP Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 21 April 2011 11:49, .arpis. wrote: > Under your solution, {ri'orcinki} would mean > effectively the same thing as {crino cinki}, leaving the two parties with > words longer by a syllable. In Lojban, "more syllables" usually coincides with "more information". And it would have been because of a lack of morphological specificity that {ri'orcinki} became a point of contention over multiple meanings that are more specific than "insects that are related to green color". Morphological particularization by adding a rafsi / syllable for each contesting definitions would be a fair solution, in my opinion. > If the dye-ers were willing to go with a longer > lujvo, the contest probably wouldn't have happened in the first place. The contest would still be meaningfully constructive if it resulted in {ri'orcinki} itself becoming more generic than "insects with green body" and in the creation of two new more specific lujvos to meet the claimed lexical demand. The issue with the ambiguity or semantic partiality of the former shorter lujvo gets resolved, and people get to speak more accurately with the latter longer lujvos. If the dye-ers wanted more than this fair game, that would be another case for them to make, i.e. to justify their claim that "insects that produce a green dye" is *more* important / basic a concept than "insects with green body", demonstrating the right to {ri'orcinki} that's morphologically more basic than {ri'opracinki}. > As another example, currently {sampla} refers to the relationship "some > programmer writing a computer program that does something". > > But come the singularity, {skami platu} may be used more frequently to refer > to plans made by a computer, not for a computer; the meaning of the lujvo > {sampla} might become increasingly archaic, and there may be a push to adopt > the meaning "some computer wrote some plan/design to do something". > [...] > I mean that the distinction over whether the programmer > is human or computer may become more important than the distinction over > whether the intended consumer is human or computer, prompting a possibility > for drift. That could again be a matter of particularization. To begin with: "made by computer" -- sampra "made by human" -- rempra "used by computer" -- sampli "used by human" -- rempli With these, we could have: samprapla -- "plan made by computer" remprapla -- "plan made by human" samplipla -- "plan used by computer" remplipla -- "plan used by human" sampraremplipla -- "plan made by computer and used by human" and so on. {sampraremplipla} may look relatively mouthful in the traditional Lojban lexicon, but 5-syllable is no longer than "computer program" (5) or, say, "コンピュータプログラム" (kon-pyuu-ta-pu-ro-gu-ra-mu, 8 -- a common Japanese word for "computer program"), both of which are yet less specific than the particularized jbovla (as I said, Lojban has a helpful low information-per-syllable ratio). Then what to do with {sampla}? As with {ci'orcinki}, we could make it so generic as to include the newly created lujvos, to mean "plan that has to do with computer". It would likely go out of use in general contexts because of its vagueness, but convenient where the specific kind of computer-related plans that are at stake can be understood from context and when the speaker yet wants to save on syllables. In my opinion, the vocabulary development in a logical and "neutral" language ought to incorporate dialectic: one shows how the conventional definition of the word in question would bear a contradiction or incompleteness if it excluded the proposed new meaning, i.e. showing the need for the word to sublate (to lift up), preserving in itself all the legitimately contesting meanings. This would at the same time help clarify the hierarchical relations between the wanted meanings and suggest the specificities to be explicit for each meaning's to-be-created lujvo. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dialectic > Another (more painful issue) is who decides what a term applying to a group > of people means: e.g. atheists tend to define "atheism" as a lack of belief > in any god, while people who don't identify as atheist tend to define > "atheism" as a disbelief in (usually the Abrahamic) god. The conflicting interpretations of the word "atheism" may be ascribable to the ambiguity of what "a-" ("without") modifies within the word: [a-the(os)]-ism --> "without-god" belief --> belief in non-reality of god (positive atheism) a-[the(os)-ism] --> without "god-belief" --> no belief in reality of god (negative atheism) These can easily be differentiated in Lojban with "ke(m)" or "bo(r)": [nar-bor-cei]-si'o nar-[kem-cei-si'o] (One could also argue that some forms of theism are not a belief in the existence of a supernatural personal being or beings, such as pantheism and panentheism where "god" is recognized more often as a result of qualitative evaluation of the empirical reality within the naturalistic framework. For that reason, we would be wise to keep the {-cei-} part so generic unless particularized by additional rafsi.) mu'o -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "lojban" group. 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