From lojban+bncCOib25n_BhC5i8jtBBoEQ7rT-g@googlegroups.com Fri Apr 22 15:48:44 2011 Received: from mail-vx0-f189.google.com ([209.85.220.189]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1QDP9S-0000o6-Ee; Fri, 22 Apr 2011 15:48:44 -0700 Received: by vxk20 with SMTP id 20sf262208vxk.16 for ; Fri, 22 Apr 2011 15:48:31 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version:sender :in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:x-google-group-id:list-post :list-help:list-archive:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=ZY40UVvrMjnbLnJxwe8+BcdKY6R5qCipF/WoQEvszOo=; b=IqnE37gYWDtbLRjD6tQR9RYV5fGa0mt3hR8rSqjDaqGugL1UuxZeScWZB3Us3GPoZy Ws/F+zTsAT5D1d3SDYlHvaudccIrQLuEUwT+wJH2wTWp0ccNGu6YWKfzCokwZx99d+88 NeSOx5b03qQ2V0iPliATroH5aXIUcgktWZjx4= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references :date:message-id:subject:from:to:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:x-google-group-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; b=YJqs3pDofA8PxwIPt0ELvVe5d6ldm0vcbZK1xzPOZ+J+NSDO/7WOxijCmIAsfAyTs5 c1Qe1Zdn844RUnYSxOyIkxJ4RJi4P7QrUwbwmopRehtxxwK0FeutwbH+mxkYIW8Xgfy0 LP0+Dol2d2t6Bx48chF9FLIRV4SSj9Hp9JXHA= Received: by 10.220.90.210 with SMTP id j18mr179285vcm.24.1303512505671; Fri, 22 Apr 2011 15:48:25 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.52.18.4 with SMTP id s4ls536573vdd.0.gmail; Fri, 22 Apr 2011 15:48:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.52.97.137 with SMTP id ea9mr610467vdb.23.1303512504935; Fri, 22 Apr 2011 15:48:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.52.97.137 with SMTP id ea9mr610466vdb.23.1303512504920; Fri, 22 Apr 2011 15:48:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-qw0-f45.google.com (mail-qw0-f45.google.com [209.85.216.45]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id b16si667676vby.2.2011.04.22.15.48.24 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Fri, 22 Apr 2011 15:48:24 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of rpglover64@gmail.com designates 209.85.216.45 as permitted sender) client-ip=209.85.216.45; Received: by mail-qw0-f45.google.com with SMTP id 8so526333qwj.4 for ; Fri, 22 Apr 2011 15:48:24 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.224.190.5 with SMTP id dg5mr560938qab.326.1303512502983; Fri, 22 Apr 2011 15:48:22 -0700 (PDT) Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.224.28.203 with HTTP; Fri, 22 Apr 2011 15:48:22 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: Date: Fri, 22 Apr 2011 18:48:22 -0400 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban] Contesting a lujvo From: ".arpis." To: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Original-Sender: rpglover64@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of rpglover64@gmail.com designates 209.85.216.45 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=rpglover64@gmail.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=20cf300fac7fb35d4304a189a748 --20cf300fac7fb35d4304a189a748 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-2022-JP Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Thank you very much for the well structured and well thought out response. I feel the need to point out, though, that you did not address my concern about "atheism". I am aware of the source of ambiguity in the English language, which would not be present in lojban; I chose "atheism" because it is the least inflammatory example of which I could think. With regard to your {ri'orcinki} solution, I can imagine a situation where the dye-ers would use {ri'orcinki} for their insect and the new lujvo for the other, and {so'a lo drata} wouldn't change their usage. I also expect that {ri'orcinki} would be used to describe the particular insect and {crino cinki} would be used to describe other green (in some way) insects, leading to a "proper definition" along the lines of "An insect which appears green; used by [group a] to describe [insect 1] and by [group b] to describe [insect 2] exclusively." 2011/4/22 tijlan > On 21 April 2011 11:49, .arpis. wrote: > > Under your solution, {ri'orcinki} would mean > > effectively the same thing as {crino cinki}, leaving the two parties with > > words longer by a syllable. > > In Lojban, "more syllables" usually coincides with "more information". > And it would have been because of a lack of morphological specificity > that {ri'orcinki} became a point of contention over multiple meanings > that are more specific than "insects that are related to green color". > Morphological particularization by adding a rafsi / syllable for each > contesting definitions would be a fair solution, in my opinion. > > > > If the dye-ers were willing to go with a longer > > lujvo, the contest probably wouldn't have happened in the first place. > > The contest would still be meaningfully constructive if it resulted in > {ri'orcinki} itself becoming more generic than "insects with green > body" and in the creation of two new more specific lujvos to meet the > claimed lexical demand. The issue with the ambiguity or semantic > partiality of the former shorter lujvo gets resolved, and people get > to speak more accurately with the latter longer lujvos. If the dye-ers > wanted more than this fair game, that would be another case for them > to make, i.e. to justify their claim that "insects that produce a > green dye" is *more* important / basic a concept than "insects with > green body", demonstrating the right to {ri'orcinki} that's > morphologically more basic than {ri'opracinki}. > > > > As another example, currently {sampla} refers to the relationship "some > > programmer writing a computer program that does something". > > > > But come the singularity, {skami platu} may be used more frequently to > refer > > to plans made by a computer, not for a computer; the meaning of the lujvo > > {sampla} might become increasingly archaic, and there may be a push to > adopt > > the meaning "some computer wrote some plan/design to do something". > > [...] > > I mean that the distinction over whether the programmer > > is human or computer may become more important than the distinction over > > whether the intended consumer is human or computer, prompting a > possibility > > for drift. > > That could again be a matter of particularization. To begin with: > > "made by computer" -- sampra > "made by human" -- rempra > "used by computer" -- sampli > "used by human" -- rempli > > With these, we could have: > > samprapla -- "plan made by computer" > remprapla -- "plan made by human" > samplipla -- "plan used by computer" > remplipla -- "plan used by human" > sampraremplipla -- "plan made by computer and used by human" > > and so on. {sampraremplipla} may look relatively mouthful in the > traditional Lojban lexicon, but 5-syllable is no longer than "computer > program" (5) or, say, "コンピュータプログラム" (kon-pyuu-ta-pu-ro-gu-ra-mu, 8 -- > a common Japanese word for "computer program"), both of which are yet > less specific than the particularized jbovla (as I said, Lojban has a > helpful low information-per-syllable ratio). > > Then what to do with {sampla}? As with {ci'orcinki}, we could make it > so generic as to include the newly created lujvos, to mean "plan that > has to do with computer". It would likely go out of use in general > contexts because of its vagueness, but convenient where the specific > kind of computer-related plans that are at stake can be understood > from context and when the speaker yet wants to save on syllables. > > In my opinion, the vocabulary development in a logical and "neutral" > language ought to incorporate dialectic: one shows how the > conventional definition of the word in question would bear a > contradiction or incompleteness if it excluded the proposed new > meaning, i.e. showing the need for the word to sublate (to lift up), > preserving in itself all the legitimately contesting meanings. This > would at the same time help clarify the hierarchical relations between > the wanted meanings and suggest the specificities to be explicit for > each meaning's to-be-created lujvo. > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dialectic > > > > Another (more painful issue) is who decides what a term applying to a > group > > of people means: e.g. atheists tend to define "atheism" as a lack of > belief > > in any god, while people who don't identify as atheist tend to define > > "atheism" as a disbelief in (usually the Abrahamic) god. > > The conflicting interpretations of the word "atheism" may be > ascribable to the ambiguity of what "a-" ("without") modifies within > the word: > > [a-the(os)]-ism --> "without-god" belief --> belief in non-reality of > god (positive atheism) > a-[the(os)-ism] --> without "god-belief" --> no belief in reality of > god (negative atheism) > > These can easily be differentiated in Lojban with "ke(m)" or "bo(r)": > > [nar-bor-cei]-si'o > nar-[kem-cei-si'o] > > (One could also argue that some forms of theism are not a belief in > the existence of a supernatural personal being or beings, such as > pantheism and panentheism where "god" is recognized more often as a > result of qualitative evaluation of the empirical reality within the > naturalistic framework. For that reason, we would be wise to keep the > {-cei-} part so generic unless particularized by additional rafsi.) > > > mu'o > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "lojban" group. > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. > > -- mu'o mi'e .arpis. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. 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