From lojban+bncCNf8pM-bDBDljsztBBoEwmgwoA@googlegroups.com Sat Apr 23 10:08:07 2011 Received: from mail-qw0-f61.google.com ([209.85.216.61]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1QDgJO-0000q0-Ba; Sat, 23 Apr 2011 10:08:07 -0700 Received: by qwh5 with SMTP id 5sf4465409qwh.16 for ; Sat, 23 Apr 2011 10:07:56 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version:sender :in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:x-google-group-id:list-post :list-help:list-archive:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; bh=fWEY11v0KDnEacEY856Bx44CojJYNeuGF4ndDlO0sis=; b=QUIX05tIehnYl6y1Agp6jzt2AP415mTCGEP4v20q1rllWc5X/PP6Q8XjKq+jon/2b5 vDFPrpRPwN9vmYZZeEjBiwe1wPlnPQ5DkVAJvJ+IVxollOcNExyX8WKKU8oGPd8H/Drj 32MOQXazE2cdIU1ua3o4Ka2Qi2IxOkSqTossU= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references :date:message-id:subject:from:to:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:x-google-group-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; b=pOHSWIJqn47REYycdo9dPyz+brOm8HeNt/CkSenKZ9eQySIiJhhW/nrJ7kOBCvQxpj GZl007u5fqaCisZPLTMLgA+znIFuHkQ8j5FyM22yrn3QEJ4lW48MjAH7mmCu9Vx/uab8 s4RG9iMZlcyYsMxlh6AMfi9pIu+MPsfvNdoBw= Received: by 10.229.106.69 with SMTP id w5mr383407qco.9.1303578469730; Sat, 23 Apr 2011 10:07:49 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.229.220.212 with SMTP id hz20ls1286666qcb.3.gmail; Sat, 23 Apr 2011 10:07:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.229.29.212 with SMTP id r20mr157342qcc.21.1303578468802; Sat, 23 Apr 2011 10:07:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.229.29.212 with SMTP id r20mr157341qcc.21.1303578468783; Sat, 23 Apr 2011 10:07:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-qy0-f179.google.com (mail-qy0-f179.google.com [209.85.216.179]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id w19si841896qco.3.2011.04.23.10.07.48 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Sat, 23 Apr 2011 10:07:48 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of paskios@gmail.com designates 209.85.216.179 as permitted sender) client-ip=209.85.216.179; Received: by mail-qy0-f179.google.com with SMTP id 7so740923qyk.10 for ; Sat, 23 Apr 2011 10:07:48 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.229.40.134 with SMTP id k6mr1612449qce.242.1303578468651; Sat, 23 Apr 2011 10:07:48 -0700 (PDT) Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.229.182.209 with HTTP; Sat, 23 Apr 2011 10:07:48 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: Date: Sat, 23 Apr 2011 18:07:48 +0100 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban] Contesting a lujvo From: tijlan To: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Original-Sender: paskios@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of paskios@gmail.com designates 209.85.216.179 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=paskios@gmail.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable 2011/4/22 .arpis. : > I feel the need to point out, though, that you did not address my concern > about "atheism". I am aware of the source of ambiguity in the English > language, which would not be present in lojban; I chose "atheism" because= it > is the least inflammatory example of which I could think. I might still be missing something here. What you had pointed out about the word "atheism" was that it's defined differently by different groups. Yes, there is a conflict of interpretations regarding this word. And any attempt at defining it unilaterally with either of the conflicting meanings is bound to be inflammatory (actual instances can be found on YouTube); why do you say it's the least so? What I suggested was: If Lojban is to have words for each of the different notions of "atheism", the least inflammatory solution I can think of would be to 1) leave on one hand the literal translation of the English (narceisi'o) as ambiguous as it is, and 2) create on the other hand lujvos that are morphologically more specific so as to ensure mutual exclusivity between the denotations in question on a more logical, explicit, and objective ground. It would be much less controversial to use -- instead of {narceisi'o} -- {narborceisi'o} for "a belief in the non-reality of god" and {narkemceisi'o} for "no belief in the reality of god". That way, in Lojban: 1) the ambiguity of the English "atheism" would be optionally expressible for whatever uncontentious reasons, and 2) the contest would be optionally discontinuable without giving up the right to either of the particular definitions through a particularized lujvo. > With regard to your {ri'orcinki} solution, I can imagine a situation wher= e > the dye-ers would use {ri'orcinki} for their insect and the new lujvo for > the other, and {so'a lo drata} wouldn't change their usage. Using {ri'orcinki} to refer to "insects that produce a green dye" wouldn't be controversial. The problem would be when the dye-ers start to claim {ri'orcinki} means *only* such insects. >=A0 I also expect > that {ri'orcinki} would be used to describe the particular insect and {cr= ino > cinki} would be used to describe other green (in some way) insects, leadi= ng > to a "proper definition" along the lines of "An insect which appears gree= n; > used by [group a] to describe [insect 1] and by [group b] to describe > [insect 2] exclusively." How would you tell whether a speaker (or an utterance) is of group A or B? Would that be a desirable arrangement for the community of a logical language? And I'm not sure if any tanru could have a dictionary entry or a prescribed proper definition. mu'o --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou= ps.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= ?hl=3Den.