From lojban+bncCIywt_XDCRCoxtXtBBoE9JUnDw@googlegroups.com Mon Apr 25 05:04:07 2011 Received: from mail-gx0-f189.google.com ([209.85.161.189]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1QEKWI-0007QV-AM; Mon, 25 Apr 2011 05:04:07 -0700 Received: by gxk3 with SMTP id 3sf4398285gxk.16 for ; Mon, 25 Apr 2011 05:03:56 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:x-beenthere:received-spf :x-yahoo-newman-property:x-yahoo-newman-id:message-id:x-ymail-osg :x-mailer:references:date:from:subject:to:in-reply-to:mime-version :x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:x-google-group-id:list-post :list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe :content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=Gm+Sk3PhzlvBhix9JNu8wS5wZmjKNygzchj15PoARfg=; b=H3mWnWdWVZyTxtdX18RY2/5/Mlm3D8EqX2cyq1CQqd2HsG0iHBwSZtPytPoSnBgxph SxAzQmsR9xMXxm/LYPbLvUgEfD3fazU8rudHlOseII7r2ZDtpjoOsw+93oY81cfauvZz fuV+6xBLoI0I1pULVD9SDnlMh+HI7/pI6NQ84= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:x-yahoo-newman-property:x-yahoo-newman-id :message-id:x-ymail-osg:x-mailer:references:date:from:subject:to :in-reply-to:mime-version:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:x-google-group-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender :list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; b=Vsv8PBLHfagw4/PZ72cZxm5ZU+IkTrs/+pbyEyp/6AMo0FKN57UuBDmjGT70XiOI/p 9X4KJfXR+3ItENLwFdSa4dDsUYsUe5LyE2ckZt3o4KxOypf5K+MXXywYCjZ1ykTrdQm4 mQPlwF83BsUHlNs60Q4rVgb55zkg201RI2WZw= Received: by 10.101.11.24 with SMTP id o24mr391722ani.3.1303733032325; Mon, 25 Apr 2011 05:03:52 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.101.56.16 with SMTP id i16ls723562ank.7.gmail; Mon, 25 Apr 2011 05:03:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.101.46.15 with SMTP id y15mr1424070anj.8.1303733031378; Mon, 25 Apr 2011 05:03:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.101.46.15 with SMTP id y15mr1424069anj.8.1303733031357; Mon, 25 Apr 2011 05:03:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nm25.access.bullet.mail.mud.yahoo.com (nm25.access.bullet.mail.mud.yahoo.com [66.94.237.90]) by gmr-mx.google.com with SMTP id d33si2088016and.1.2011.04.25.05.03.50; Mon, 25 Apr 2011 05:03:50 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: best guess record for domain of kali9putra@yahoo.com designates 66.94.237.90 as permitted sender) client-ip=66.94.237.90; Received: from [66.94.237.201] by nm25.access.bullet.mail.mud.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 25 Apr 2011 12:03:50 -0000 Received: from [66.94.237.101] by tm12.access.bullet.mail.mud.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 25 Apr 2011 12:03:49 -0000 Received: from [127.0.0.1] by omp1006.access.mail.mud.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 25 Apr 2011 12:03:49 -0000 X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: ymail-3 X-Yahoo-Newman-Id: 899453.75890.bm@omp1006.access.mail.mud.yahoo.com Received: (qmail 3538 invoked by uid 60001); 25 Apr 2011 12:03:49 -0000 Message-ID: <629725.75177.qm@web81305.mail.mud.yahoo.com> X-YMail-OSG: y2sWP.sVM1ljKDDx48nOpNPvB7ifXhZ8qEDCIEI.iYQRJ2q .tr4Wvk_hDC.aEPPMHwSY50rAJI9toWhYq290dEYfuAvI2ASl1XGSGfMstb8 Blw5ShrzYaNHpO4G_P3xdVHDgvP0ZBIktS9F.E3wXt8rbXBj1mueA0zRqjZ2 fiSFfQF86UoW9t6orhjFTW.tET4CcPfZcit9z2dO9pcVkTwp_2sp2cHupPea zjxsKkS2PP.8ckAcIuP3EZ4G574XgqfemXpQD3YdBUAiaHJ3HndvKZLxcs.s iEhpNgTE_9H76IoGgtGf67_rEWBjhNcKc9p70ukCwAtteAhvIta4VAWq4VgC aIJeMtNHDi.Cdv2PnqcGgBkBgRiCxZhZfEt80sE0FGIlBZudYhxW5tBVGED. Xex_D.ZPUiv4WvLs- Received: from [99.92.108.41] by web81305.mail.mud.yahoo.com via HTTP; Mon, 25 Apr 2011 05:03:49 PDT X-Mailer: YahooMailRC/559 YahooMailWebService/0.8.110.299900 References: Date: Mon, 25 Apr 2011 05:03:49 -0700 (PDT) From: John E Clifford Subject: Re: [lojban] Semantic Primitives (continued) To: lojban@googlegroups.com In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Original-Sender: kali9putra@yahoo.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: best guess record for domain of kali9putra@yahoo.com designates 66.94.237.90 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=kali9putra@yahoo.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@yahoo.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Without defending NSM, I should point out that what they mean by "define" i= s=20 rather peculiar to them, not the usual verbal equivalence but something mor= e=20 like context building. As for the adequacy of their set of concepts, they = claim=20 to have tested it on xty x different languages and refined their list again= st=20 the problems and successes in these trials. So (assuming the data isn't to= o=20 badly hoaxed) they have empirical evidence -- which could, of course, be=20 overthrown by the next language, or at least modified. ----- Original Message ---- From: tijlan To: lojban@googlegroups.com Sent: Mon, April 25, 2011 5:02:58 AM Subject: [lojban] Semantic Primitives (continued) On 23 April 2011 14:16, MorphemeAddict wrote: > Circularity is avoidable. That's the whole point of Anna Wierzbicka's > Natural Semantic Metalanguage, which assumes a small number (~62) of 'wor= ds' > that can't be defined in terms of simpler words. 2011/4/24 Jorge Llamb=EDas : > On Sun, Apr 24, 2011 at 10:22 AM, MorphemeAddict wrot= e: >> On Sat, Apr 23, 2011 at 2:04 PM, Jonathan Jones wrot= e: >>> >>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Natural_semantic_metalanguage >>> >>> I also don't think they're very well chosen, as a lot of them are easy = to >>> define without circularity. >> >> Really? Which ones? How would you define them? > > The ones I always found a bit surprizing were the pairs GOOD - BAD, > BIG - SMALL, A LONG TIME - A SHORT TIME, NEAR - FAR, when one in each > pair could easily be defined in terms of the other: OPPOSITE-OF GOOD, > OPPOSITE-OF BIG, OPPOSITE-OF A-LONG-TIME, OPPOSITE-OF NEAR. > > They don't have OPPOSITE-OF as a primitive, but presumably it must be > definable in terms of primitives (although it's not easy to see how). > And even if you needed to use BAD, SMALL, A SHORT TIME and FAR to > define OPPOSIT-OF, it would still be more economical to have > OPPOSITE-OF as the primitive instead of the other four. > > Also, couldn't A-SHORT-TIME and A-LONG-TIME not be just SMALL > FOR-SOME-TIME and BIG FOR-SOME-TIME? Likewise, DIE could be OPPOSITE-OF-LIVE HAPPEN or NOT-LIVE HAPPEN. Depending on the culture, it might be even that DEAD be the basis for BORN or NOT-DEAD HAPPEN. Why is TRUE not among "logical concepts", especially in relation to NOT? Why should MOMENT be distinct from WHEN/TIME or VERY-SHORT TIME? Boguswafski might have implied OPPOSITE-OF when he didn't couple MORE with LESS on the same row. Similarly, he put in LIKE/WAY alone without its probable counterpart, DIFFERENT. And there are KIND, SAME, and OTHER in other categories; I wonder why all these couldn't belong to the same category. Shouldn't there be EXPRESS or REPRESENT, regarding which SAY could be resolved into WORD EXPRESS? Could SYMBOL not be more primitive than WORD? Why should WORD be plural as Boguswafski puts it? Could WORDS not be SOME/MANY WORD? Could PEOPLE not be defined as SOME/MANY PERSON? Could PERSON not be a derivative of THING with MENTAL? Are connectives not primitive? I-{e}-YOU for WE (in the sense of {mi'o}), ONE-{joi}-ONE for TWO, NOT FAR-{a}-NEAR for HERE, NOT BEFORE-{a}-AFTER for NOW, THING-SAME PLACE-{e}-TIME-NOT-SAME HAPPEN for MOVE, and so on. Very productive. Why not on the list? On 24 April 2011 18:14, Jonathan Jones wrote: >>> I also don't think they're very well chosen, as a lot of them are easy = to >>> define without circularity. >> >> Really? Which ones? How would you define them? > > > Well, I and YOU, for a start. Lojban defines those as "the speaker" and "= the > listener", respectively. To use the terms on the list: speaker =3D SAY-DO THING listener =3D HEAR-DO THING These might then belong to the "Relational Substantives", for there can't be a speech listener without a speech speaker. Lojban has also "others", which may include what Boguswafski calls SOMETHING/THING. mu'o --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups= =20 "lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to=20 lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at=20 http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den. --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou= ps.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= ?hl=3Den.