From lojban+bncCML0xpmUARDH1trtBBoE_u691Q@googlegroups.com Tue Apr 26 04:24:34 2011 Received: from mail-ww0-f61.google.com ([74.125.82.61]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1QEgNM-0005Cf-T7; Tue, 26 Apr 2011 04:24:34 -0700 Received: by wwb13 with SMTP id 13sf850264wwb.16 for ; Tue, 26 Apr 2011 04:23:55 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version :in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:x-google-group-id:list-post :list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe :content-type; bh=Tg5/jbRYxOxLEKOc9L+tuun1J4mnkuofcQYk7U7Wsk4=; b=heUbpwGqMglTEUBBaQZpYFgWcMEYAPvHdm1+y7f7fA0dv3d6Y6+whqvhyB/g5fUJUs i7/5I6OjDKp6fQamWDOhYgoellkDFcmWba5EJ/o3t4AUd+v/4OYA8b8vs/r5rHL68Ic6 +n39ya1U8WQoifTDT3mgYlKt6mtyaUQE6vnL0= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date :message-id:subject:from:to:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:x-google-group-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender :list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; b=65t1/ElYPnF6P47Tk27M40gk37E/TDgOoOEexw/MZU2DxH9vsq8fS4m02xm87Bfq6Z mKkCs+uSTfiI+ElUhC0WlBYbczx8WUEgAEmY+z9FVhm8/Z7kmuPCGzpWD5HBFwg8G4Uu x1Rb6lAjH6y0zmh0CC7CYri4ZU8a/Rsf6swfk= Received: by 10.216.231.98 with SMTP id k76mr1345238weq.22.1303817031762; Tue, 26 Apr 2011 04:23:51 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.227.130.31 with SMTP id q31ls2852547wbs.1.gmail; Tue, 26 Apr 2011 04:23:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.216.68.208 with SMTP id l58mr287218wed.1.1303817030504; Tue, 26 Apr 2011 04:23:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.216.68.208 with SMTP id l58mr287217wed.1.1303817030438; Tue, 26 Apr 2011 04:23:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-ww0-f46.google.com (mail-ww0-f46.google.com [74.125.82.46]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id h14si789275wer.5.2011.04.26.04.23.50 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Tue, 26 Apr 2011 04:23:50 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of blindbravado@gmail.com designates 74.125.82.46 as permitted sender) client-ip=74.125.82.46; Received: by mail-ww0-f46.google.com with SMTP id 28so521048wwb.15 for ; Tue, 26 Apr 2011 04:23:50 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.216.9.141 with SMTP id 13mr4465328wet.73.1303817030068; Tue, 26 Apr 2011 04:23:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.216.13.211 with HTTP; Tue, 26 Apr 2011 04:23:49 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: <3eb6a3fe-db0e-4b7e-bd78-c81e73aad058@u12g2000prn.googlegroups.com> <0eb81ace-24e7-4b80-ac56-064fca41ea04@z33g2000vbk.googlegroups.com> Date: Tue, 26 Apr 2011 07:23:49 -0400 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban] Re: multilingual lovesong From: Ian Johnson To: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Original-Sender: blindbravado@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of blindbravado@gmail.com designates 74.125.82.46 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=blindbravado@gmail.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=0016e64c25a8edeb4404a1d08e73 --0016e64c25a8edeb4404a1d08e73 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Yeah, this is how I was using {se zgitci}. {zgitcigau} would work too as that selbri, but then if you use the usual {gau} tradition you'd end up wit= h {x1 uses musical instrument x2 to produce sound x3}, which would require either some awkward conversion or {zgitcigau ro zgitci ko'a}, which also seems kinda awkward. mu'o mi'e .latros. On Tue, Apr 26, 2011 at 3:45 AM, Matthew Walton < matthew@matthew-walton.co.uk> wrote: > On 26 April 2011 08:27, nilcefas wrote: > > ok, now that sounds more profound, i guess. but i'm not sure, if i get > > it right: > > > > 1. what does {sagycku} in the first bridi mean? (where does the {cku} > > come from?) wouldn't {sanga} suffice? > > I don't get that one either. Vlasisku thinks the second component of > that lujvo is {cukta}. If you expand into a tanru it doesn't make much > sense, although I suppose it could be a lujvo something like x1 sings > work/words x2 but I'm not sure it's actually necessary to do it that > way. Hopefully latros will clarify. > > > 2. do you really mean the second selbri is {se zgitci}? or should it > > rather be {sance}? otherwise i don't get the meaning of it. > > {se zgitci} is "x1 is sound produced by musical instrument x2", so the > {lo nu} part is about {ko'a} being produced by all musical instruments > {ro zgitci}. There doesn't seem to be anything in the dictionary > currently along the lines of "x1 plays musical instrument x2 producing > word/tune/notes/sound x3" but this seems like a good way to get that > idea across to me. Although it does leave out that the singer wants to > actually do the playing, so one might want something in there to do > with {gasnu} or more likely {gau}, but you're going to run out of > syllables probably. Although I think most people probably understand > that musical instruments don't tend to play themselves. Unless they're > MIDI-controlled and plugged into a sequencer. > > {sance} is just "x1 is sound produced/emitted by x2", which leaves out > the idea that it's musical instruments which are being played which I > feel is quite important here. Both the German and the English are > fairly explicit about that in my mind (although my German is fairly > poor). > > > > > On 25 Apr., 21:12, Ian Johnson wrote: > >> {goi} might actually be better than {po'u}, since ko'a is theretofore > >> unused. > >> > >> mu'o mi'e .latros. > >> > >> > >> > >> On Mon, Apr 25, 2011 at 3:11 PM, Ian Johnson > wrote: > >> > .i mi djica lo nu sagycku ko'a do bau ro bangu .i go'i lo nu ko'a se > zgitci > >> > ro zgitci .i ko'a po'u lu mi prami do .iu li'u > >> > >> > Something like that. > >> > >> > mu'o mi'e .latros. > >> > >> > On Mon, Apr 25, 2011 at 2:28 PM, nilcefas >wrote: > >> > >> >> right! {djica lo nu sanga} is obviously the better choice. would a > >> >> construction with {.au} work as well? like {mi .au sanga}? > >> > >> >> concerning the {da}: what i tried to do was a structure like this: > >> > >> >> "i want to sing X in every language, and make X sound on every > >> >> instrument. X =3D i love you" > >> > >> >> i was not sure whether {da} was the right cmavo to choose, but i > >> >> certainly don't mean {do}. wouldn't that mean like "i want to sing > >> >> in every language"? i thought about using {go'o}, but that i'= m > >> >> not sure about at all. actually, wouldn't that only work for the > >> >> second (the {sance})-bridi but not for the first one? > >> > >> >> On Apr 24, 10:53 pm, ".arpis." wrote: > >> >> > A few comments: > >> > >> >> > {djica sanga} is "want type-of sing", which would be better used = to > mean > >> >> > something like "desirously sing"; {sanga djica} is probably bette= r > at > >> >> > expressing "want to sing", or an explicit {djica lo nu sanga}. > >> >> > I'm not sure why the {da} in the first bridi is there; should it = be > >> >> {do}? > >> >> > And I'm not sure what the {da} in the second bridi is doing there > >> >> either. > >> > >> >> > As far as I can tell, the {iu} at the end is fine; it attaches to > {do}, > >> >> > which works perfectly in context. > >> > >> >> > On Sun, Apr 24, 2011 at 3:51 PM, nilcefas < > nils.schaef...@gmail.com> > >> >> wrote: > >> >> > > coi rodo > >> > >> >> > > lately, i have been to a performance by "bodo wartke", a german > >> >> "musik- > >> >> > > kabarettist". one of his pieces features a short love-poem, whi= ch > he > >> >> > > translated into over eighty languages so far. these include > conlangs > >> >> > > such as esperanto, quenya and klingon, but lojban is still > missing. so > >> >> > > i made an effort to translate it with my rudimentary > lojban-skills. > >> >> > > that's why i'd be glad if anyone could look through my > translation... > >> > >> >> > > the german original goes as follows: > >> > >> >> > > >> ich will's in allen sprachen f=FCr dich singen, auf allen > >> >> instrumenten zum > >> >> > > erklingen bringen: ich liebe dich > >> > >> >> > > his english translation is not quite exact, but is probably > better in > >> >> > > terms of versification: > >> > >> >> > > >> i want to sing in every language for you, baby, and play on > every > >> >> > > instrument to say these words to you: believe me, it is true - = i > love > >> >> you > >> > >> >> > > however, my attempt in lojban is based on the german original: > >> > >> >> > > >> ni'o mi djica sanga bau ro bangu da .i mi se sance sepi'o ro > zgitci > >> >> da > >> >> > > .i mi prami do .iu > >> > >> >> > > jbofi'e tells me, that this is grammatical, but is it "good > lojban" > >> >> > > too? especially the construction with the two "da" seems a litt= le > >> >> > > strange to me (although it might be practical, because it > provides a > >> >> > > sort of rhyme). i would like to include the ".iu" at the very e= nd > of > >> >> > > the verse, because these emotional indicators are such a unique > >> >> > > feature of lojban - unless, of course, this should sound too > awkward. > >> > >> >> > > i'd appreciate any ideas on this. also, if anyone has a > translation, > >> >> > > that would fit better in the given meter or with a better rhyme= , > that > >> >> > > would be great! here's a link to the song: > >> > >> >> > >http://youtu.be/J2UBXB4IhZM > >> > >> >> > > thanks in advance! > >> > >> >> > > nils > >> > >> >> > > -- > >> >> > > You received this message because you are subscribed to the > Google > >> >> Groups > >> >> > > "lojban" group. > >> >> > > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > >> >> > > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > >> >> > > lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > >> >> > > For more options, visit this group at > >> >> > >http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den. > >> > >> >> > -- > >> >> > mu'o mi'e .arpis. > >> > >> >> -- > >> >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google > Groups > >> >> "lojban" group. > >> >> To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > >> >> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > >> >> lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > >> >> For more options, visit this group at > >> >>http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den.- Zitierten Text > ausblenden - > >> > >> - Zitierten Text anzeigen - > > > > -- > > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Grou= ps > "lojban" group. > > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den. > > > > > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "lojban" group. > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den. > > --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou= ps.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= ?hl=3Den. --0016e64c25a8edeb4404a1d08e73 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Yeah, this is how I was using {se zgitci}. {zgitcigau} would work too as th= at selbri, but then if you use the usual {gau} tradition you'd end up w= ith {x1 uses musical instrument x2 to produce sound x3}, which would requir= e either some awkward conversion or {zgitcigau ro zgitci ko'a}, which a= lso seems kinda awkward.

mu'o mi'e .latros.

On Tue, Ap= r 26, 2011 at 3:45 AM, Matthew Walton <matthew@matthew-walton.co.uk> wrote:
On 26 April 2011 08:27, n= ilcefas <nils.schaeffer@gmai= l.com> wrote:
> ok, now that sounds more profound, i guess. but i'm not sure, if i= get
> it right:
>
> 1. what does {sagycku} in the first bridi mean? (where does the {cku}<= br> > come from?) wouldn't {sanga} suffice?

I don't get that one either. Vlasisku thinks the second component= of
that lujvo is {cukta}. If you expand into a tanru it doesn't make much<= br> sense, although I suppose it could be a lujvo something like x1 sings
work/words x2 but I'm not sure it's actually necessary to do it tha= t
way. Hopefully latros will clarify.

> 2. do you really mean the second selbri is {se zgitci}? or should it > rather be {sance}? otherwise i don't get the meaning of it.

{se zgitci} is "x1 is sound produced by musical instrument x2&qu= ot;, so the
{lo nu} part is about {ko'a} being produced by all musical instruments<= br> {ro zgitci}. There doesn't seem to be anything in the dictionary
currently along the lines of "x1 plays musical instrument x2 producing=
word/tune/notes/sound x3" but this seems like a good way to get that idea across to me. Although it does leave out that the singer wants to
actually do the playing, so one might want something in there to do
with {gasnu} or more likely {gau}, but you're going to run out of
syllables probably. Although I think most people probably understand
that musical instruments don't tend to play themselves. Unless they'= ;re
MIDI-controlled and plugged into a sequencer.

{sance} is just "x1 is sound produced/emitted by x2", which leave= s out
the idea that it's musical instruments which are being played which I feel is quite important here. Both the German and the English are
fairly explicit about that in my mind (although my German is fairly
poor).

>
> On 25 Apr., 21:12, Ian Johnson <blindbrav...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> {goi} might actually be better than {po'u}, since ko'a is = theretofore
>> unused.
>>
>> mu'o mi'e .latros.
>>
>>
>>
>> On Mon, Apr 25, 2011 at 3:11 PM, Ian Johnson <blindbrav...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> > .i mi djica lo nu sagycku ko'a do bau ro bangu .i go'= i lo nu ko'a se zgitci
>> > ro zgitci .i ko'a po'u lu mi prami do .iu li'u >>
>> > Something like that.
>>
>> > mu'o mi'e .latros.
>>
>> > On Mon, Apr 25, 2011 at 2:28 PM, nilcefas <nils.schaef...@gmail.com>wrote:
>>
>> >> right! {djica lo nu sanga} is obviously the better choice= . would a
>> >> construction with {.au} work as well? like {mi .au sanga}= ?
>>
>> >> concerning the {da}: what i tried to do was a structure l= ike this:
>>
>> >> "i want to sing X in every language, and make X soun= d on every
>> >> instrument. X =3D i love you"
>>
>> >> i was not sure whether {da} was the right cmavo to choose= , but i
>> >> certainly don't mean {do}. wouldn't that mean lik= e "i want to sing
>> >> <you> in every language"? i thought about usin= g {go'o}, but that i'm
>> >> not sure about at all. actually, wouldn't that only w= ork for the
>> >> second (the {sance})-bridi but not for the first one?
>>
>> >> On Apr 24, 10:53 pm, ".arpis." <rpglover64+jbo...@gmail.com> wr= ote:
>> >> > A few comments:
>>
>> >> > {djica sanga} is "want type-of sing", whic= h would be better used to mean
>> >> > something like "desirously sing"; {sanga d= jica} is probably better at
>> >> > expressing "want to sing", or an explicit = {djica lo nu sanga}.
>> >> > I'm not sure why the {da} in the first bridi is = there; should it be
>> >> {do}?
>> >> > And I'm not sure what the {da} in the second bri= di is doing there
>> >> either.
>>
>> >> > As far as I can tell, the {iu} at the end is fine; i= t attaches to {do},
>> >> > which works perfectly in context.
>>
>> >> > On Sun, Apr 24, 2011 at 3:51 PM, nilcefas <nils.schaef...@gmail.com>
>> >> wrote:
>> >> > > coi rodo
>>
>> >> > > lately, i have been to a performance by "b= odo wartke", a german
>> >> "musik-
>> >> > > kabarettist". one of his pieces features a= short love-poem, which he
>> >> > > translated into over eighty languages so far. t= hese include conlangs
>> >> > > such as esperanto, quenya and klingon, but lojb= an is still missing. so
>> >> > > i made an effort to translate it with my rudime= ntary lojban-skills.
>> >> > > that's why i'd be glad if anyone could = look through my translation...
>>
>> >> > > the german original goes as follows:
>>
>> >> > > >> ich will's in allen sprachen f=FCr= dich singen, auf allen
>> >> instrumenten zum
>> >> > > erklingen bringen: ich liebe dich
>>
>> >> > > his english translation is not quite exact, but= is probably better in
>> >> > > terms of versification:
>>
>> >> > > >> i want to sing in every language for y= ou, baby, and play on every
>> >> > > instrument to say these words to you: believe m= e, it is true - i love
>> >> you
>>
>> >> > > however, my attempt in lojban is based on the g= erman original:
>>
>> >> > > >> ni'o mi djica sanga bau ro bangu d= a .i mi se sance sepi'o ro zgitci
>> >> da
>> >> > > .i mi prami do .iu
>>
>> >> > > jbofi'e tells me, that this is grammatical,= but is it "good lojban"
>> >> > > too? especially the construction with the two &= quot;da" seems a little
>> >> > > strange to me (although it might be practical, = because it provides a
>> >> > > sort of rhyme). i would like to include the &qu= ot;.iu" at the very end of
>> >> > > the verse, because these emotional indicators a= re such a unique
>> >> > > feature of lojban - unless, of course, this sho= uld sound too awkward.
>>
>> >> > > i'd appreciate any ideas on this. also, if = anyone has a translation,
>> >> > > that would fit better in the given meter or wit= h a better rhyme, that
>> >> > > would be great! here's a link to the song:<= br> >>
>> >> > >http://youtu.be/J2UBXB4IhZM
>>
>> >> > > thanks in advance!
>>
>> >> > > nils
>>
>> >> > > --
>> >> > > You received this message because you are subsc= ribed to the Google
>> >> Groups
>> >> > > "lojban" group.
>> >> > > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
>> >> > > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >> >> > > lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
>> >> > > For more options, visit this group at
>> >> > >http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den.
>>
>> >> > --
>> >> > mu'o mi'e .arpis.
>>
>> >> --
>> >> You received this message because you are subscribed to t= he Google Groups
>> >> "lojban" group.
>> >> To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
>> >> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to
>> >> = lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
>> >> For more options, visit this group at
>> >>http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den.- Zit= ierten Text ausblenden -
>>
>> - Zitierten Text anzeigen -
>
> --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Gro= ups "lojban" group.
> To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/= lojban?hl=3Den.
>
>

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