From lojban+bncCOjSjrXVGBC51t7tBBoE6WrjYA@googlegroups.com Tue Apr 26 22:36:08 2011 Received: from mail-wy0-f189.google.com ([74.125.82.189]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1QExPv-00027t-Tr; Tue, 26 Apr 2011 22:36:08 -0700 Received: by wya21 with SMTP id 21sf1865736wya.16 for ; Tue, 26 Apr 2011 22:35:57 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version :in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:x-google-group-id:list-post :list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe :content-type; bh=BMVpgpBtncem9RfgElJ61Cut94aGt/1v+/2W6SEb5N0=; b=GaUOzI9eQDwBznzy+9RgaCsIvxA/VgL/kYzjBTkxFydNGY0VYVkukKPFECudzLzQDb lbRAXqSEb3kYZMsl0EMuvRwFMLAcropv1z3HamVkTOsvxTx8Fa1Iv9+t194CxZ6Nzc5k PKzOVAcwPB26iXe2lGNxiRg4KrA5dSDHwKe7o= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from :date:message-id:subject:to:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:x-google-group-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender :list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; b=GMnrZ0oLmhBPVM2mKAY2jwDtrWZihoOSXUPwOwUcLrGjDZQIsit6yz8+4OuYOgGqx+ TiwlMc3Pp4SBnqYyD0VhJpYw+ohiLOwscW3IQ9ZiAMEXeITOJ5wy3s1yP2YTHgwAV0eD DatZNeAgBaoChTPS+aWKo2fDWBnEbTcD1I9Bw= Received: by 10.216.142.155 with SMTP id i27mr1678749wej.1.1303882553651; Tue, 26 Apr 2011 22:35:53 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.14.11.92 with SMTP id 68ls39366eew.4.gmail; Tue, 26 Apr 2011 22:35:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.14.22.11 with SMTP id s11mr161166ees.9.1303882552393; Tue, 26 Apr 2011 22:35:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.14.22.11 with SMTP id s11mr161165ees.9.1303882552355; Tue, 26 Apr 2011 22:35:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-ew0-f43.google.com (mail-ew0-f43.google.com [209.85.215.43]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id l15si152650eei.3.2011.04.26.22.35.52 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Tue, 26 Apr 2011 22:35:52 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of lukeabergen@gmail.com designates 209.85.215.43 as permitted sender) client-ip=209.85.215.43; Received: by ewy20 with SMTP id 20so578630ewy.16 for ; Tue, 26 Apr 2011 22:35:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.14.122.193 with SMTP id t41mr752809eeh.198.1303882552123; Tue, 26 Apr 2011 22:35:52 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.14.29.4 with HTTP; Tue, 26 Apr 2011 22:35:32 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: <29de23a7-9c3b-439e-8bc7-57748489baa7@z37g2000vbl.googlegroups.com> From: Luke Bergen Date: Wed, 27 Apr 2011 01:35:32 -0400 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban] Lettorals To: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Original-Sender: lukeabergen@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of lukeabergen@gmail.com designates 209.85.215.43 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=lukeabergen@gmail.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=e0cb4e70014559234104a1dfd0e0 --e0cb4e70014559234104a1dfd0e0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 But you understand the point right? English has essentially three generic pronouns, "he", "she", and "it". There are different tensed versions of those three, and maybe you can include "this" and "that" but essentially you've got only a handful of pronouns none of which gives any direct hint as to what is the antecedent. In what universe is that in any way better than the pronoun system that we have in lojban? In fact, one thing that's been really pissing me off about english lately is the inability to refer to a human being with a personal pronoun that doesn't imply a particular gender. The best I've been able to come up with is "friend". Every other personal pronoun/name-functioning-as-pronoun in english implies a gender ("buddy, guy, dude, sir, dad, grandpa, etc..." are all clearly male.) While in lojban we have everything under BY, KOhA, and DA which are all gender agnostic. Here, a better example of how the english pronoun system sucks: "after putting the disk in the cabinet, Mabel sold it." The fact that this is possible while still being grammatical (and I run into it often enough that this is kind of a hot-button point for me) is why english pronouns are screwy at best and why I think lojban actually did this bit quite well. .iku'i ro prenu cu se krali lo nu jinvi to lo srera .u'i toi On Wed, Apr 27, 2011 at 1:09 AM, Ivo Doko wrote: > On 27 April 2011 05:12, Luke Bergen wrote: > > "bob hit billy. He is 8". > > In that case the intonation of the voice and accentuation will give > clues as to what "he" refers to - Bob or Billy. There's no such tool > in lojban. Although even without intonation/accentuation, it is more > probable that "he" will refer to subject (Bob) rather than the object > (Billy) of the previous sentence (unless specifically stressed, e.g. > "Bob hit *BILLY*. *HE* is eight."). Furthermore, most speakers would > not phrase such an utterance like that (split into two sentences) but > would more likely say either "Bob, who is eight, hit Billy" or "Bob > hit Billy, who is eight". > > > -- > mu'o mi'e .ivan. > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "lojban" group. > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. > > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. --e0cb4e70014559234104a1dfd0e0 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable But you understand the point right? =A0English has essentially three generi= c pronouns, "he", "she", and "it". =A0There a= re different tensed versions of those three, and maybe you can include &quo= t;this" and "that" but essentially you've got only a han= dful of pronouns none of which gives any direct hint as to what is the=A0an= tecedent. =A0In what universe is that in any way better than the pronoun sy= stem that we have in lojban?

In fact, one thing that's been really pissing me off abo= ut english lately is the inability to refer to a human being with a persona= l pronoun that doesn't imply a particular gender. =A0The best I've = been able to come up with is "friend". =A0Every other personal pr= onoun/name-functioning-as-pronoun in english implies a gender ("buddy,= guy, dude, sir, dad, grandpa, etc..." are all clearly male.)

While in lojban we have everything under BY, KOhA, and = DA which are all gender agnostic.

Here, a better example = of how the english pronoun system sucks: "after putting the disk in th= e cabinet, Mabel sold it." =A0The fact that this is possible while sti= ll being grammatical (and I run into it often enough that this is kind of a= hot-button point for me) is why english pronouns are screwy at best and wh= y I think lojban actually did this bit quite well.

.iku'i ro prenu cu se krali lo nu jinvi to lo srera= .u'i toi

On Wed, Apr 27, 2011= at 1:09 AM, Ivo Doko <ivo.doko@gmail.com> wrote:
On 27 April 2011 05:12, L= uke Bergen <lukeabergen@gmail.c= om> wrote:
> "bob hit billy. =A0He is 8".

In that case the intonation of the voice and accentuation will give clues as to what "he" refers to - Bob or Billy. There's no su= ch tool
in lojban. Although even without intonation/accentuation, it is more
probable that "he" will refer to subject (Bob) rather than the ob= ject
(Billy) of the previous sentence (unless specifically stressed, e.g.
"Bob hit *BILLY*. *HE* is eight."). Furthermore, most speakers wo= uld
not phrase such an utterance like that (split into two sentences) but
would more likely say either "Bob, who is eight, hit Billy" or &q= uot;Bob
hit Billy, who is eight".


--
mu'o mi'e .ivan.

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