From lojban+bncCPGMg4mHHBDN8t7tBBoExZx5WA@googlegroups.com Tue Apr 26 23:36:11 2011 Received: from mail-ww0-f61.google.com ([74.125.82.61]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1QEyM3-0004bN-Gh; Tue, 26 Apr 2011 23:36:11 -0700 Received: by wwb13 with SMTP id 13sf2084771wwb.16 for ; Tue, 26 Apr 2011 23:36:01 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version :in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:x-google-group-id:list-post :list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe :content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=CQhq+6ivU9JfCtKYDA09tmN8Ejb4AMknZulBvbU4KpA=; b=CmS0sYwTQzGV6/eVSzZVUDmb1eUhKXg+L3uyJ/EBghkYixk+MydVmONHz4gLlg2lZl rTKjcED8dUPsuFxdWqjZ3681oC2BrFIAAzbv7atXRjl41zutQUZk/YM03aZlO381Lie2 INlQscjY7eWAwLapaoKkqFAYwVU8+Sry9jPGk= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date :message-id:subject:from:to:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:x-google-group-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender :list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; b=qjGFIiTTwadpVGJm1YKkytGnquAevH1TIlrZn6Ky5q2F6bv2tsz4nlFQbTQz/cqZ6u 0SqH3/y+QKP1AE2tmORXYGFeRTmM1hw6AIi21T7+bhvJ3+qe+/QqEutMAAUyURSBiAKw uEzfkLLWhNK2Lp7YnoVf2rs0H2gND96yI/oFQ= Received: by 10.216.68.202 with SMTP id l52mr1682686wed.26.1303886157206; Tue, 26 Apr 2011 23:35:57 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.216.49.69 with SMTP id w47ls173443web.2.gmail; Tue, 26 Apr 2011 23:35:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.216.59.213 with SMTP id s63mr110109wec.12.1303886156164; Tue, 26 Apr 2011 23:35:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.216.59.213 with SMTP id s63mr110108wec.12.1303886156101; Tue, 26 Apr 2011 23:35:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-ww0-f45.google.com (mail-ww0-f45.google.com [74.125.82.45]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id h59si53955wes.6.2011.04.26.23.35.56 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Tue, 26 Apr 2011 23:35:56 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of ivo.doko@gmail.com designates 74.125.82.45 as permitted sender) client-ip=74.125.82.45; Received: by wwi36 with SMTP id 36so1269308wwi.26 for ; Tue, 26 Apr 2011 23:35:56 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.227.63.6 with SMTP id z6mr1715763wbh.53.1303886155762; Tue, 26 Apr 2011 23:35:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.227.156.5 with HTTP; Tue, 26 Apr 2011 23:35:55 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: <29de23a7-9c3b-439e-8bc7-57748489baa7@z37g2000vbl.googlegroups.com> Date: Wed, 27 Apr 2011 07:35:55 +0100 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban] Lettorals From: Ivo Doko To: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Original-Sender: ivo.doko@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of ivo.doko@gmail.com designates 74.125.82.45 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=ivo.doko@gmail.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 27 April 2011 07:09, Luke Bergen wrote: > Haha. =A0If it's better then evolutionary pressure would make it happen. > =A0That's why walking is better than flying in a jet in every way. You've just proven my point with the sarcasm there. We do fly in jets when it is better than walking, don't we? Case in point that evolutionary pressure does its job. And yes, for beings such as we, walking is generally better than flying because handling tools is more important than being able to fly and evolving wings alongside arms would require too big a jump from local fitness maximum. > And yes, English allows=A0you to be unambiguous and clear but the fact th= at it > also allows the lazy speaker to be ambiguous and confusing is a flaw in t= he > language. I thought lojban also allowed the speaker to be as much ambiguous or unambiguous as (s)he wanted. Or did something change while I wasn't looking? > I'm confused how you can go through that explanation of what it was that > mabel sold and say "see, nice and easy" but then gejyspa's explanation of > "it's a pronoun for whatever last started with that letter" is "messy and > confusing". Because it *is* messy and confusing. No natural language features even remotely similar mechanism for handling pronouns, which can only mean that our "hardware" is not a priori "wired" in a way in which such handling of pronouns comes naturally to it. (Which doesn't mean that I'm saying that it can't be learned - it is an extremely flexible piece of hardware we are talking about here.) As opposed to that, inductive reasoning (which I demonstrated in understanding the example with Mabel) *does* come naturally to the hardware, which is why no natural language features specific mechanisms for minimising the requirement of inductive reasoning in understanding of the language. > Just because it's not your first language doesn't make > it=A0inherently=A0messy and complicated. Which is not what I said. English is not my first language either (although frankly, my first language is an Indo-European language so it's not like learning English was too much trouble). --=20 mu'o mi'e .ivan. --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou= ps.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= ?hl=3Den.