From lojban+bncCPGMg4mHHBDnkN_tBBoEfRZlzA@googlegroups.com Wed Apr 27 00:40:38 2011 Received: from mail-ww0-f61.google.com ([74.125.82.61]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1QEzMP-0002ph-Hi; Wed, 27 Apr 2011 00:40:38 -0700 Received: by wwb13 with SMTP id 13sf2187703wwb.16 for ; Wed, 27 Apr 2011 00:40:27 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version :in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:x-google-group-id:list-post :list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe :content-type; bh=MK+CdEMeU5LpUCbtfym0x7/R9VJhOsgk46TbZwJ9GZo=; b=tN62lVANRZe+nPSyGZDEMGEpeebh6bYnNNRehTDCEtY2R3rHK/x8kqhS6nN1j0LMCy 8DjBrXaPFOuczrO7K4oXzPhQH9WsCmYlfZ32Cf1DVwFBc8Svhy3EaO4BCgk6PZtyL0yW ntbHa+iQDQrTPQYQ35r3J1bE0I6zbxZyJdxQE= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date :message-id:subject:from:to:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:x-google-group-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender :list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; b=4+xnRRNqZBjxwYc5QN9czWXFXenM+zrd2siVk6/A7lw6GAucYy0GxovkwG9tjq90ys 2X4QbsRc1p2zF1QvbhvUhhLC9ztJf95ZSsDpa7bVF3OPRYoZeMlZovZQOMzd3Bo5vjvi 8s2FpjYXswLizLgRbwEzwX3Q8rdNWwsyeHoNw= Received: by 10.216.78.133 with SMTP id g5mr1719546wee.19.1303890023281; Wed, 27 Apr 2011 00:40:23 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.227.9.96 with SMTP id k32ls209802wbk.2.gmail; Wed, 27 Apr 2011 00:40:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.227.6.201 with SMTP id a9mr105184wba.9.1303890022318; Wed, 27 Apr 2011 00:40:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.227.6.201 with SMTP id a9mr105183wba.9.1303890022304; Wed, 27 Apr 2011 00:40:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-wy0-f179.google.com (mail-wy0-f179.google.com [74.125.82.179]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id f14si166673wbu.1.2011.04.27.00.40.22 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Wed, 27 Apr 2011 00:40:22 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of ivo.doko@gmail.com designates 74.125.82.179 as permitted sender) client-ip=74.125.82.179; Received: by wyg36 with SMTP id 36so1014034wyg.10 for ; Wed, 27 Apr 2011 00:40:22 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.227.140.166 with SMTP id i38mr537256wbu.140.1303890022080; Wed, 27 Apr 2011 00:40:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.227.156.5 with HTTP; Wed, 27 Apr 2011 00:40:21 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: <29de23a7-9c3b-439e-8bc7-57748489baa7@z37g2000vbl.googlegroups.com> Date: Wed, 27 Apr 2011 08:40:21 +0100 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban] Lettorals From: Ivo Doko To: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Original-Sender: ivo.doko@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of ivo.doko@gmail.com designates 74.125.82.179 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=ivo.doko@gmail.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 On 27 April 2011 08:26, Jonathan Jones wrote: > We don't fly because we evolved the ability. We fly because of technological > innovation. And the ability to achieve technological innovation has happened because of natural evolution. > Bats have the ability to manipulate tools... There have been no reported sightings of bats manipulating tools. > That's not a reason. The sentence by itself is circular and not an explanation of the reason, but the sentence is not by itself (it is followed by an explanation) so there's no point in singling it out and pointing out that it is not a reason. Of course it's not. Now that I've singled out your sentence as well I can say that it is a pointless tautology, because the word "that" is clearly not a reason. Those sorts of arguments don't give much fruit, though. >> No natural language features even >> remotely similar mechanism for handling pronouns, which can only mean >> that our "hardware" is not a priori "wired" in a way in which such >> handling of pronouns comes naturally to it. (Which doesn't mean that >> I'm saying that it can't be learned - it is an extremely flexible >> piece of hardware we are talking about here.) As opposed to that, >> inductive reasoning (which I demonstrated in understanding the example >> with Mabel) *does* come naturally to the hardware, which is why no >> natural language features specific mechanisms for minimising the >> requirement of inductive reasoning in understanding of the language. > > > None of that has anything to do with whether or not Lojban's system is messy > or confusing. Red Herring fallacies are not logical arguments. I don't see how what I had said was a red herring argument. My point was that lojban's way of dealing with pronouns does not in any similar form occur in any natural language, thus it is not a linguistic mechanism which comes naturally to humans, thus it is confusing (not messy, I agree - that was a hyperbole). -- mu'o mi'e .ivan. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en.