From lojban+bncCOWVnJObDhDJ-ufsBBoEVFt4hw@googlegroups.com Mon Apr 04 10:18:18 2011 Received: from mail-yw0-f61.google.com ([209.85.213.61]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1Q6nPq-0005mu-Ds; Mon, 04 Apr 2011 10:18:18 -0700 Received: by ywg8 with SMTP id 8sf12005170ywg.16 for ; Mon, 04 Apr 2011 10:18:08 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:x-beenthere:mime-version:date:x-ip:user-agent :x-http-via:x-http-useragent:message-id:subject:from:to :x-original-sender:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list:list-id :x-google-group-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender :list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; bh=JBYRlNujhLxwx8uLYwGUr9TbHVOEZ/oDLOK1ukDdMbY=; b=BBEnTotZ2+B7oG1YsiPvrza6kH56iDuxLbbpNg8qMP37srdYvwKfWbVtX6KCYIE79B KAvLwd/jGBIICN7A1LFz+tt2OhKyDfpwz2VIPREoOSNc5tAZBncjvdlpFCEwRjJiIuMF 0PqF2nPlghj+UB9vWz7855MISBzUEsLULmhOs= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:mime-version:date:x-ip:user-agent:x-http-via :x-http-useragent:message-id:subject:from:to:x-original-sender :reply-to:precedence:mailing-list:list-id:x-google-group-id :list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe :list-unsubscribe:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=axNvPmz6yFVI3Gxx4fcqxNp2lN6Z106XtJDMp9ujoOzE970sD1Fi1RgPwCNTbNro9+ jtHcxHIz1UnL2Zmqn99uXGZvLLAQv+l0pUMOOC0EXF53dYhxwjDePPUt6F3RK1dPTtBm Zs2IT6f7SoSvXg87RzKvytt0VKe7qNDbytPLw= Received: by 10.91.160.32 with SMTP id m32mr474281ago.14.1301937481936; Mon, 04 Apr 2011 10:18:01 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.91.49.1 with SMTP id b1ls1184899agk.6.p; Mon, 04 Apr 2011 10:18:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.91.162.3 with SMTP id p3mr3664400ago.23.1301937481055; Mon, 04 Apr 2011 10:18:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.151.127.19 with SMTP id e19msybn; Sun, 3 Apr 2011 17:08:18 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.90.24.36 with SMTP id 36mr1168736agx.51.1301875698010; Sun, 03 Apr 2011 17:08:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: by u8g2000yqh.googlegroups.com with HTTP; Sun, 3 Apr 2011 17:08:15 -0700 (PDT) Date: Sun, 3 Apr 2011 17:08:15 -0700 (PDT) X-IP: 88.250.85.74 User-Agent: G2/1.0 X-HTTP-Via: 1.1 bsna.tur.wtbts.net:3128 (squid/2.7.STABLE7) X-HTTP-UserAgent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 6.0; en-GB; rv:1.9.2.16) Gecko/20110319 Firefox/3.6.16 ( .NET CLR 3.5.30729),gzip(gfe) Message-ID: <0a74da06-07cf-4b52-a329-ed0ebbae2f5b@u8g2000yqh.googlegroups.com> Subject: [lojban] I love Lojban's approach, but what's the deal with place tags? From: "Joel T." To: lojban X-Original-Sender: joelofarabia@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi all Lojbanists... First of all... Wow! Well done to everybody who's worked so hard with this language over the years. I applaud the scientific objectives of the Lojban project and the tirelessness of its community. I discovered Lojban while doing researching for a hobby I pursue off and on: a universal semantic writing system/syllabary. Imagine a Blissymbols-Sona hybrid and you've got the general idea. After making some headway on grammar it turns out that I'd stumbled on a Lojban- style predicate logic approach, though I hadn't thought of it in those terms. Perhaps I should introduce myself properly: I have no formal training as a linguist per se, but I am an English-Turkish bilingual with training and several years' experience as an translator and interpreter. I often find when reading up on linguistic theory that I am just learning the proper terminology for things I have already worked out "in the field." Although, don't get me wrong, I'm sure I still have much to learn. I just wanted to share my (probably flawed) impressions about Lojban after taking my first few lessons on Lojban for Beginners by Robin Turner and Nick Nicholas (http://www.tlg.uci.edu/~opoudjis/ lojbanbrochure/lessons/book1.html). Maybe I'm looking at the glass half empty, and you can help me find a different perspective. As I said, I earn my keep by working with English, which relies on word order, and Turkish, which uses case endings. Switch two words in an English sentence and the meaning can be the opposite of what it was before. Completely randomize the words in a Turkish sentence and it usually means the same thing. I had always thought the two systems were mutually incompatible. With Lojban, it feels like I'm being taught both systems at once: Place structure (like English) and place tags (like Turkish). But that's not the worst part. I have to be ready for a sentence containing any possible combination of the two! I know you will say that Lojban dictates word order, so the place tags system is not akin to Turkish. But if I'm using place tags, semantically speaking there's nothing stopping me from doing what I want with word order. This is what happens in Turkish. Technically the verb is supposed to come at the end of the sentence, and this is the convention in written communication and publishing. But day-to-day, people use "devrik c=FCmleler" (flipped sentences) all the time. Although the Turkish Language Institute might frown on such usages as being "wrong", they're an indispensible part of the language. Sometimes the flavour of a "devrik c=FCmle" is completely different to the "correct" word order. If you're serious about letting usage dictate the direction the language takes, you have to take this possibility into account. IMO. It starts when people get into "bad habits", like using place tags to amend sentences after they've been said. Then these usages start to assume new roles, like adding emphasis. Before you know it the language has whole new features you never planned for. I would venture that this would almost certainly happen in any rigorous Sapir-Whorf test. In any case, surely running two systems side-by-side is asking for dialectisation (is that a word?), where speakers in one area get used to one system while speakers in another prefer the other? Another grumble is that, if you'll grant me that place tags basically amount to a case system, you've got a language where the case system is irregular for practically every single verb (gismu?) with 3 or more places. I understand the concerns about semantic inaccuracy. So invent more cases. How many do you want, 5, 15, 50? I'd learn them all. I'd rather learn 50 regular place tags than 5 irregular ones multiplied by however many hundred verbs you have. Maybe I'm missing something here, but it feels like the Lojban case tag system complicates things for no good reason the same way that using abstract symbols instead of an alphabet complicates things for no good reason. Please don't misunderstand all this as a rant against Lojban itself. I think all students of all languages have a rant from time to time against bits they see as being unnecessarily difficult. I really admire the elegance of Lojban, and nothing would make me happier than to be proven wrong on all these points. Please see my comments as nothing more than the first impressions of a beginner. Thank you and all the best! Joel --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou= ps.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= ?hl=3Den.