From lojban+bncCMHEmaCOBhCX4d_tBBoE3fEU_g@googlegroups.com Wed Apr 27 03:32:10 2011 Received: from mail-fx0-f61.google.com ([209.85.161.61]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1QF22L-0007S0-RB; Wed, 27 Apr 2011 03:32:09 -0700 Received: by fxm14 with SMTP id 14sf1837599fxm.16 for ; Wed, 27 Apr 2011 03:31:55 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version :in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:x-google-group-id:list-post :list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe :content-type; bh=g/5ZZbgXJaLrEMQ5GLhhptJFuZdzsHENiIQxd85utHQ=; b=LYMGq15hYMZ1DJIQKn/DVOLl0cEjQFVynnRFdvrAO2tnyny23fMdFAbihpONDJtGbd q91J51kkUKbFlFOKqzUku4sYa3sgQIY+RT6ppU9N7uwv2sHR/nzIOEd1ijK6rxkycpR9 3cEWAIFBIfqsIBurf6ibHOZEAlb/WVVST91C4= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date :message-id:subject:from:to:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:x-google-group-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender :list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; b=c9Ffv/lzfgggYPKawvhyz2UgWJqYdxWnFgD2rCDFjFZLEKUt0MSdaptKzwblOR2xdI qpsxsH+v3TH8T+8y/qWKhvyOLc5iApaaxuu8Zrg0wNNDWqNfTj6/fRmeRWzoC1CZa4lJ lOfpCBIYPYlVeWmFcZQr6xv9Q8p1DngnVVspA= Received: by 10.223.92.145 with SMTP id r17mr264645fam.28.1303900311076; Wed, 27 Apr 2011 03:31:51 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.223.78.196 with SMTP id m4ls167661fak.0.gmail; Wed, 27 Apr 2011 03:31:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.223.102.205 with SMTP id h13mr144386fao.10.1303900309817; Wed, 27 Apr 2011 03:31:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.223.102.205 with SMTP id h13mr144385fao.10.1303900309773; Wed, 27 Apr 2011 03:31:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-bw0-f48.google.com (mail-bw0-f48.google.com [209.85.214.48]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id c13si71214fak.2.2011.04.27.03.31.49 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Wed, 27 Apr 2011 03:31:49 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of eyeonus@gmail.com designates 209.85.214.48 as permitted sender) client-ip=209.85.214.48; Received: by mail-bw0-f48.google.com with SMTP id 8so1305323bwz.7 for ; Wed, 27 Apr 2011 03:31:49 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.204.154.199 with SMTP id p7mr1762584bkw.114.1303900309526; Wed, 27 Apr 2011 03:31:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.204.191.80 with HTTP; Wed, 27 Apr 2011 03:31:49 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: <29de23a7-9c3b-439e-8bc7-57748489baa7@z37g2000vbl.googlegroups.com> Date: Wed, 27 Apr 2011 04:31:49 -0600 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban] Lettorals From: Jonathan Jones To: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Original-Sender: eyeonus@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of eyeonus@gmail.com designates 209.85.214.48 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=eyeonus@gmail.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=0015175def8cc5983e04a1e3f2cb --0015175def8cc5983e04a1e3f2cb Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 On Wed, Apr 27, 2011 at 4:17 AM, Jonathan Jones wrote: > On Wed, Apr 27, 2011 at 1:40 AM, Ivo Doko wrote: > >> On 27 April 2011 08:26, Jonathan Jones wrote: >> > We don't fly because we evolved the ability. We fly because of >> technological >> > innovation. >> >> And the ability to achieve technological innovation has happened >> because of natural evolution. >> > > Whether or not evolution enabled technological development is irrelevant to > whether evolution enabled humans to fly. It didn't, nor under any > circumstances will it ever. Einstein's mother gave birth to him. That fact > has nothing to do with him developing the Theories of Special and General > Relativity. > > >> > Bats have the ability to manipulate tools... >> >> There have been no reported sightings of bats manipulating tools. >> > > Tool manipulation is a product of comprehension, which is determined by > various factors of the brain. The ability does not imply the use. Monkeys > are able to type, but they lack that necessary to understand how to write. > > >> > That's not a reason. >> >> The sentence by itself is circular and not an explanation of the >> reason, but the sentence is not by itself (it is followed by an >> explanation) so there's no point in singling it out and pointing out >> that it is not a reason. Of course it's not. Now that I've singled out >> your sentence as well I can say that it is a pointless tautology, >> because the word "that" is clearly not a reason. Those sorts of >> arguments don't give much fruit, though. >> > > I'm not even going to bother pointing out the flaws in the above argument, > as they are wholly irrelevant to the issue at hand. > > >> >> No natural language features even >> >> remotely similar mechanism for handling pronouns, which can only mean >> >> that our "hardware" is not a priori "wired" in a way in which such >> >> handling of pronouns comes naturally to it. (Which doesn't mean that >> >> I'm saying that it can't be learned - it is an extremely flexible >> >> piece of hardware we are talking about here.) As opposed to that, >> >> inductive reasoning (which I demonstrated in understanding the example >> >> with Mabel) *does* come naturally to the hardware, which is why no >> >> natural language features specific mechanisms for minimising the >> >> requirement of inductive reasoning in understanding of the language. >> > >> > >> > None of that has anything to do with whether or not Lojban's system is >> messy >> > or confusing. Red Herring fallacies are not logical arguments. >> >> I don't see how what I had said was a red herring argument. My point >> was that lojban's way of dealing with pronouns does not in any similar >> form occur in any natural language, thus it is not a linguistic >> mechanism which comes naturally to humans, thus it is confusing (not >> messy, I agree - that was a hyperbole). > > > That Lojban's pronouns do not exist in natural languages does not mean that > it is confusing, nor does something existing in a natural language mean that > it is not confusing. The two statements are unrelated. As such, your point > is irrelevant to the issue. I personally do not find the method confusing at > all, thus providing counter-evidence to your claim, while I do find German's > system of declension extremely confusing. > > >> -- >> mu'o mi'e .ivan. >> > > Thus far you have not given any evidence to support your claim that it is > confusing. You have provided claims with no backing that at best have merely > a glancing relevance to the issue. I invite you to review logical fallacies > here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Logical_fallacies before you construct > your next argument. > > > -- > mu'o mi'e .aionys. > > .i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do zo'o > (Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D ) > > Furthermore, I would like to point out that a system similar to Lojban's /does/ exist in natural languages- at least in English, it is common practice in interview transcriptions to refer to the speakers by their initials after the first occurrence of them speaking. (Excerpt from GameInformer interview of Kevin Butler http://forums.gametrailers.com/thread/gameinformer-interview%E2%80%94things/1121901 ): *It would seem that a busy guy like yourself would need to start the day out right with a power breakfast. How do you start you morning?* KB: I follow a strict regimen of the four food groups. And every food group is bacon. *You've unlocked the secrets of space and time and traveled to the future. What's that like? Got any tips for prospective time travelers?* KB: Time travel tips? Only one: bring toilet paper. I don't want to get into detail, but let's just say that the future alternative to toilet paper is one party you don't want an invitation to. *Do you have any heroes? Who does Kevin Butler admire most?* KB: Only one: President Millard Fillmore. For obvious reasons -- mu'o mi'e .aionys. .i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do zo'o (Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D ) -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. --0015175def8cc5983e04a1e3f2cb Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
On Wed, Apr 27, 2011 at 4:17 AM, Jonathan Jones = <eyeonus@gmail.co= m> wrote:
On Wed, Apr 27, 2011 at 1:40 A= M, Ivo Doko <ivo.doko@gmail.com> wrote:
On 27 April 2011 08:26, Jonathan Jones <eyeonus@gmail.com> wrote:
> We don't fly because we evolved the ability. We fly because of tec= hnological
> innovation.

And the ability to achieve technological innovation has happened
because of natural evolution.

Whether or not= evolution enabled technological development is irrelevant to whether evolu= tion enabled humans to fly. It didn't, nor under any circumstances will= it ever. Einstein's mother gave birth to him. That fact has nothing to= do with him developing the Theories of Special and General Relativity.
=A0
> Bats have the ability to manipulate tools...

There have been no reported sightings of bats manipulating tools.

Tool manipulation is a product of comprehension, whic= h is determined by various factors of the brain. The ability does not imply= the use. Monkeys are able to type, but they lack that necessary to underst= and how to write.
=A0
> That's not a reason.

The sentence by itself is circular and not an explanation of the
reason, but the sentence is not by itself (it is followed by an
explanation) so there's no point in singling it out and pointing out that it is not a reason. Of course it's not. Now that I've singled = out
your sentence as well I can say that it is a pointless tautology,
because the word "that" is clearly not a reason. Those sorts of arguments don't give much fruit, though.
I'm not even going to bother pointing out the flaws in the above argum= ent, as they are wholly irrelevant=A0 to the issue at hand.
=A0
>> No natural language features even
>> remotely similar mechanism for handling pronouns, which can only m= ean
>> that our "hardware" is not a priori "wired" in= a way in which such
>> handling of pronouns comes naturally to it. (Which doesn't mea= n that
>> I'm saying that it can't be learned - it is an extremely f= lexible
>> piece of hardware we are talking about here.) As opposed to that,<= br> >> inductive reasoning (which I demonstrated in understanding the exa= mple
>> with Mabel) *does* come naturally to the hardware, which is why no=
>> natural language features specific mechanisms for minimising the >> requirement of inductive reasoning in understanding of the languag= e.
>
>
> None of that has anything to do with whether or not Lojban's syste= m is messy
> or confusing. Red Herring fallacies are not logical arguments.

I don't see how what I had said was a red herring argument. My po= int
was that lojban's way of dealing with pronouns does not in any similar<= br> form occur in any natural language, thus it is not a linguistic
mechanism which comes naturally to humans, thus it is confusing (not
messy, I agree - that was a hyperbole).

That Loj= ban's pronouns do not exist in natural languages does not mean that it = is confusing, nor does something existing in a natural language mean that i= t is not confusing. The two statements are unrelated. As such, your point i= s irrelevant to the issue. I personally do not find the method confusing at= all, thus providing counter-evidence to your claim, while I do find German= 's system of declension extremely confusing.
=A0
--
mu'o mi'e .ivan.

Thus far you have not given any evidence= to support your claim that it is confusing. You have provided claims with = no backing that at best have merely a glancing relevance to the issue. I in= vite you to review logical fallacies here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lo= gical_fallacies before you construct your next argument.


--
mu'o mi'e .aionys.

.i.e'ucai ko cmima lo piln= o be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do zo'o
(Come to the Dot Side! Lu= ke, I am your father. :D )


Furthermore, I would like to point out t= hat a system similar to Lojban's /does/ exist in natural languages- at = least in English, it is common practice in interview transcriptions to refe= r to the speakers by their initials after the first occurrence of them spea= king.

(Excerpt from GameInformer interview of Kevin Butler http://forums.gametrailers.com/thread/gameinformer-interview%E2%80%94thi= ngs/1121901):
It would seem that a busy guy like yourself would need to start the day = out right with a power breakfast.
How do you start you morning?
KB: I follow a strict regimen of the four food groups. And every food group= is bacon.

You've unlocked the secrets of space and time and traveled to the fu= ture. What's that like?
Got any tips for prospective time travelers?
KB: Time travel tips? Only one: bring toilet paper. I don't want to get= =20 into detail, but let's just say that the future alternative to toilet= =20 paper is one party you don't want an invitation to.

Do you have any heroes? Who does Kevin Butler admire most?
KB: Only one: President Millard Fillmore. For obvious reasons

--
mu'o mi'e .aionys.

.i.e'ucai ko cmima lo = pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do zo'o
(Come to the Dot Side= ! Luke, I am your father. :D )

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group.
To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou= ps.com.
For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= ?hl=3Den.
--0015175def8cc5983e04a1e3f2cb--