From lojban+bncCIycn8S8DhDy4t_tBBoEW0cp1w@googlegroups.com Wed Apr 27 03:35:43 2011 Received: from mail-qw0-f61.google.com ([209.85.216.61]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1QF25s-0007Wu-Ax; Wed, 27 Apr 2011 03:35:43 -0700 Received: by qwh5 with SMTP id 5sf3408721qwh.16 for ; Wed, 27 Apr 2011 03:35:34 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version :in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:x-google-group-id:list-post :list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe :content-type; bh=YuEnYp8R3B9PbwRvYM6be64AyjL0hK/PWBlPHbq4Au8=; b=kJ72PJo6twvwA10GOvygTk17uHWl68273KtlX/9y0El38BVbyQ3ijs2yRIUTosHR3W L2NuE27qg06swClGw4CZVbfgEcpjaoBfKP0ZOAdh1IndWgugxfdEyGPNPUVsJkxh2EG7 qGeTPEiJ/+z5B40dXJs477vOKb1oiZW9dNq0s= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date :message-id:subject:from:to:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:x-google-group-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender :list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; b=Eru40bsgJerYbfNDUl7acHfZzjM6TMBVSL5Ff1XJsqpllvvzfFIeIbW+/i7z3MkuZ9 fzuIXXp22sKBFf5NNY0NUklqnLKJCwOhF6y0b+mQbd0uzskkNAOyZp+3KsytiyTKfuus 7NB7bK/kuz/xYcWdmWP4EkgApeJgwO/QDptQQ= Received: by 10.229.73.15 with SMTP id o15mr141569qcj.1.1303900530450; Wed, 27 Apr 2011 03:35:30 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.229.220.212 with SMTP id hz20ls218907qcb.3.gmail; Wed, 27 Apr 2011 03:35:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.229.105.81 with SMTP id s17mr157446qco.2.1303900529451; Wed, 27 Apr 2011 03:35:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.229.105.81 with SMTP id s17mr157445qco.2.1303900529422; Wed, 27 Apr 2011 03:35:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-qw0-f41.google.com (mail-qw0-f41.google.com [209.85.216.41]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id m42si148307qcz.9.2011.04.27.03.35.29 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Wed, 27 Apr 2011 03:35:29 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of mturniansky@gmail.com designates 209.85.216.41 as permitted sender) client-ip=209.85.216.41; Received: by mail-qw0-f41.google.com with SMTP id 26so939771qwa.0 for ; Wed, 27 Apr 2011 03:35:29 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.229.102.165 with SMTP id g37mr1553193qco.120.1303900529293; Wed, 27 Apr 2011 03:35:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.229.188.133 with HTTP; Wed, 27 Apr 2011 03:35:29 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: <29de23a7-9c3b-439e-8bc7-57748489baa7@z37g2000vbl.googlegroups.com> Date: Wed, 27 Apr 2011 06:35:29 -0400 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban] Lettorals From: Michael Turniansky To: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Original-Sender: mturniansky@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of mturniansky@gmail.com designates 209.85.216.41 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=mturniansky@gmail.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 >> None of that has anything to do with whether or not Lojban's system is messy >> or confusing. Red Herring fallacies are not logical arguments. > > I don't see how what I had said was a red herring argument. My point > was that lojban's way of dealing with pronouns does not in any similar > form occur in any natural language, thus it is not a linguistic > mechanism which comes naturally to humans, thus it is confusing (not > messy, I agree - that was a hyperbole). > (Gee, I opened up a messy can of worms here by simply addressing what lojban /does/....) I'm sorry, Ivan, but all you've shown me is that someone who is reared on the currently existing natlangs (and I'll take your word for it that you've studied up enough on the several thousand living and dead languages out there to know that there isn't a single case out there of a similar mechanism ;-) ) MIGHT be confused by the system (I never have been, so, you know, counterexample (indeed, it's so engrained that I often argue with xorxes when I trip across a letteral that shouldn't mechanistically logically refer to what it he would argue it must refer to from a real-world contextual POV)). But you haven't proven your case that someone who is reared on only lojban would be confused by it. As you say, the brain is flexible hardware. (i.e. you can make a valid claim that it is not _natural_, but not that it is inherently confusing) Point the second: You made reference to intonation and such being a prnoun disambiguator in English/other natlangs. Well, more than 50% of English that I take in is written, not spoken, so you lose that capability. And more than 99% of my lojban communication is that way. Point the third (to Jonathan): "More likely is 'Bob hit Billy. Bob is 8'." REALLY? I'm sorry, you must mostly communicate with people who write Dick and Jane primers. I never talk like that. My English speaking and writing is chockful of interwoven clauses and phrases. Heck, just look at the current document if you have any doubt. That's why my lojban writing is as well, and that's why I pine for abilities that lojban doesn't have that I think it should, which I can do in English, like being able to refer to something that's a) imbedded way inside some sub-bridi (without the clunky goi/cei mechanism, which requires forethought) or b) qualifying bridi in the same way I can my sumti. --gejyspa -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "lojban" group. 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