From lojban+bncCPGMg4mHHBCrpODtBBoEBmiEqg@googlegroups.com Wed Apr 27 05:55:21 2011 Received: from mail-wy0-f189.google.com ([74.125.82.189]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1QF4H0-0005MO-0g; Wed, 27 Apr 2011 05:55:21 -0700 Received: by wya21 with SMTP id 21sf2692524wya.16 for ; Wed, 27 Apr 2011 05:55:11 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version :in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:x-google-group-id:list-post :list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe :content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=4dit/CPscVLogfmjkNpod0VWt2dcUZWBumq6zpu9Cjg=; b=xrM/gCGAT1asNYPrnUUgNIHmfXWKyOEc09Vf75I45NpJhAz/yFqC2/+dreaxoC7msI gcusxV6Xg+2Z+UgnDMF9C7lmpetRg5NxWYyR+Uu6fiV0Lt0A5ivSrF/nK2D6nYZlTcOZ xlSUKQBhcbaSAJHakhcQe8y3b3MxZBDVAI+n8= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date :message-id:subject:from:to:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:x-google-group-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender :list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; b=cuetX39PWKi+xubp0ekuaTJ57nRfq4V897k1xYPK+N01RoVgm3SCFcoefL7840BjSB 5BzOXFgCTSw0nGdUl0NMlzzajVcBN+VyCOVrr2QvxzUg/jJlGqWDEo8j5U+/Gj27YnxQ M7vydyNrVBGcySm7UhX9GXFkFTFGboPdcUptw= Received: by 10.216.59.146 with SMTP id s18mr1823921wec.14.1303908907550; Wed, 27 Apr 2011 05:55:07 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.227.139.31 with SMTP id c31ls325368wbu.0.gmail; Wed, 27 Apr 2011 05:55:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.227.153.65 with SMTP id j1mr125825wbw.23.1303908906450; Wed, 27 Apr 2011 05:55:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.227.153.65 with SMTP id j1mr125824wbw.23.1303908906433; Wed, 27 Apr 2011 05:55:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-ww0-f44.google.com (mail-ww0-f44.google.com [74.125.82.44]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id e4si215339wbb.6.2011.04.27.05.55.06 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Wed, 27 Apr 2011 05:55:06 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of ivo.doko@gmail.com designates 74.125.82.44 as permitted sender) client-ip=74.125.82.44; Received: by wwa36 with SMTP id 36so1847418wwa.1 for ; Wed, 27 Apr 2011 05:55:06 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.227.63.6 with SMTP id z6mr2116697wbh.53.1303908906062; Wed, 27 Apr 2011 05:55:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.227.156.5 with HTTP; Wed, 27 Apr 2011 05:55:05 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: <29de23a7-9c3b-439e-8bc7-57748489baa7@z37g2000vbl.googlegroups.com> Date: Wed, 27 Apr 2011 13:55:05 +0100 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban] Lettorals From: Ivo Doko To: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Original-Sender: ivo.doko@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of ivo.doko@gmail.com designates 74.125.82.44 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=ivo.doko@gmail.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 27 April 2011 13:41, Michael Turniansky wrote: > On Wed, Apr 27, 2011 at 6:43 AM, Ivo Doko wrote: >> On 27 April 2011 11:35, Michael Turniansky wrote= : >>> I'm sorry, Ivan, but all you've shown me is that someone who is reared >>> on the currently existing natlangs MIGHT be confused by the system. >> >> Wait a second here, I don't understand... That's precisely the thing I >> was claiming all along! >> This: >> >>> But you haven't >>> proven your case that someone who is reared on only lojban =A0would be >>> confused by it. =A0As you say, the brain is flexible hardware. =A0(i.e. >>> you can make a valid claim that it is not _natural_, but not that it >>> is inherently confusing) >> >> I did not intend to say nor imply. How can something be *inherently* con= fusing?! >> >> >> As always, I cause misunderstandings. :( >> > =A0Well, talk in lojban then, and there will BE no misunderstandings. > See how easy that was? =A0;-) ;-) > > =A0Okay, to recap: =A0Here was your sentence: >>... lojban's way of dealing with pronouns does not in any similar >> form occur in any natural language, thus it is not a linguistic >> mechanism which comes naturally to humans, thus it is confusing > > =A0You are asserting, ISTM, =A0three separate claims: > > 1) no da =A0poi na'e lojbo bangu zo'u lo lojbo ke cmebasti ciste cu > panra me da =A0ke cmebasti ciste > 2) .i seni'ibo la'e lo se go'i ku poi bangu tadji cu jai jinzi no remna > 3) .i seni'ibo lo se go'i cu cfipu > > =A0I will concede the first, arguendo, even though I am not sure it is tr= ue. > =A0The second does seem to follow from the first, although again, all > we can really say is "not yet" or "no living human" > =A0The third claim is the problematic one. =A0Now, it might be that it's > because you didn't fill the x2 place. =A0If you had said "la'o .ry Ivo > Doko .ry ", "so'o prenu" (or perhaps even "so'i prenu"), you might > have gotten no argument from me. =A0But by saying BECAUSE it is not > natural, THEREFORE it is confusing, and not qualifying who it is > confusing to, it seems to me that you are implicitly claiming: > > ro da ro de zo'u lo du'u da na jinzi de cu nibli lo du'u da cfipu de > > =A0And I categorically say that statement is false. =A0Plenty of things > that are not natural are not confusing. > > =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0--gejyspa > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups= "lojban" group. > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegr= oups.com. > For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojb= an?hl=3Den. > > Well, I didn't say "not natural", I said "doesn't come naturally" (which - of course - being an expression in English can have a gazillion different meanings all differing by some petty nuance in a certain detail), but I do agree, that sentence of mine was pretty terribly worded. --=20 mu'o mi'e .ivan. --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou= ps.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= ?hl=3Den.