From lojban+bncCPGMg4mHHBC9suDtBBoErjxMkA@googlegroups.com Wed Apr 27 06:25:32 2011 Received: from mail-ww0-f61.google.com ([74.125.82.61]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1QF4kC-0005Rh-CY; Wed, 27 Apr 2011 06:25:32 -0700 Received: by wwb13 with SMTP id 13sf2886336wwb.16 for ; Wed, 27 Apr 2011 06:25:21 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version :in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:x-google-group-id:list-post :list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe :content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=Y0TMS6r+8L7RrsUTCuZC+VVk7xNWcjUqS9muvVZ0dZc=; b=ah852Lb+0xFVcfksUdJknJKISnoONYdhyvOI362L4hXiBkvWph3k7LZwP5xkHjoj+J 4H7pglUc+SQRyUtt0NoSgBorfveqmTfEGwRiIctBCa4wVbRuH9c7Zhk7kC8nXvq79xrr Gg68LQ0q4Bz3e68pgfHUCHJcYiCdaHQbM0OAo= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date :message-id:subject:from:to:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:x-google-group-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender :list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; b=czt4TblmmFBIIIu9KZB6bY28+cET0qf00tcHUOOmor2UhT4UgR6CVmag1xLqJz0gu5 CANlxozv++sWmvEQ9cnnTxdaqdXUyIzXwdY+1F7gZkyoosJz0VYu+czVU7u9eMrFbkcB JF8L+WaqoOV83OU+nz4lp6r3jqV0ffKqG3Yc8= Received: by 10.216.192.14 with SMTP id h14mr324795wen.13.1303910717961; Wed, 27 Apr 2011 06:25:17 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.227.130.31 with SMTP id q31ls332733wbs.1.gmail; Wed, 27 Apr 2011 06:25:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.216.68.208 with SMTP id l58mr380648wed.1.1303910716926; Wed, 27 Apr 2011 06:25:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.216.68.208 with SMTP id l58mr380647wed.1.1303910716897; Wed, 27 Apr 2011 06:25:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-ww0-f44.google.com (mail-ww0-f44.google.com [74.125.82.44]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id g5si112764wej.4.2011.04.27.06.25.16 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Wed, 27 Apr 2011 06:25:16 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of ivo.doko@gmail.com designates 74.125.82.44 as permitted sender) client-ip=74.125.82.44; Received: by mail-ww0-f44.google.com with SMTP id 36so1576617wwa.25 for ; Wed, 27 Apr 2011 06:25:16 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.227.61.16 with SMTP id r16mr2155216wbh.24.1303910716788; Wed, 27 Apr 2011 06:25:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.227.156.5 with HTTP; Wed, 27 Apr 2011 06:25:16 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: <29de23a7-9c3b-439e-8bc7-57748489baa7@z37g2000vbl.googlegroups.com> Date: Wed, 27 Apr 2011 14:25:16 +0100 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban] Lettorals From: Ivo Doko To: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Original-Sender: ivo.doko@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of ivo.doko@gmail.com designates 74.125.82.44 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=ivo.doko@gmail.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 27 April 2011 14:02, Michael Turniansky wrote: > Then you have merely shifted the problematic assertion back one > step. =A0Now 3 does follow from 2a, but 2a doesn't follow from 1. =A0Just > because something hasn't yet been seen to arise spontaneously, doesn't > mean it's not easy for someone. =A0 No one drove a car before 1850, and > yet 1000s of millions of people do now... Indeed, and people need to go to driving schools and it takes them months to learn how to drive properly and yet years after that to completely master it. When a human being sits in the driver's seat for the first time it could be said that (s)he is confused. It's an extremely tricky discussion and given my unfortunately still lacking skill in lojban I'm afraid we're at an impasse. Specifically, the word I was looking for was not "confusing" exactly and unfortunately I'm not sure if there's even an appropriate word for it in lojban. What I meant to say is that a person who has heard nothing but natural languages since birth will, when confronted with lojban's pronoun system, find it to be... and that's where I need a word which means "foreign", "odd" and "strange" but stronger than an English speaker would find e.g. Arabic or Mandarin foreign, odd and strange. Saying "very foreign, odd and strange" is one solution I guess but that is a bit lacking. I'm not looking for "foreign" as in "featured in a human culture that isn't your own", but "featured in no human culture". "Alien" is, on the other hand, a bit too strong a word for it because it's obviously not alien - people have invented it. --=20 mu'o mi'e .ivan. --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou= ps.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= ?hl=3Den.