From lojban+bncCIywt_XDCRDwzODtBBoEz0fYsw@googlegroups.com Wed Apr 27 07:21:52 2011 Received: from mail-gx0-f189.google.com ([209.85.161.189]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1QF5cg-00083m-4j; Wed, 27 Apr 2011 07:21:51 -0700 Received: by gxk3 with SMTP id 3sf3203355gxk.16 for ; Wed, 27 Apr 2011 07:21:40 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:x-beenthere:received-spf :x-yahoo-newman-property:x-yahoo-newman-id:message-id:x-ymail-osg :x-mailer:references:date:from:subject:to:in-reply-to:mime-version :x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:x-google-group-id:list-post :list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe :content-type; bh=6AT/FnJ53SZwcjGMedFpw17y7C5FNo7J0c0AjX+xHG8=; b=Fz2LGgACON7f+F+SDwu0o6d3uMlaXaDgLypGvyWK6IGgLpaICvAF1FaDG1BtozGVRH E6T9Qon8+Q9TU1KBH1/KYLYuWj0X3M2atReCkMFw3y6jvYw2GvwDm8T2ViNuMASYfUUG sLmZaXW2nsvjJyMQG83yHAIQJ2cXZP1nGNjZE= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:x-yahoo-newman-property:x-yahoo-newman-id :message-id:x-ymail-osg:x-mailer:references:date:from:subject:to :in-reply-to:mime-version:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:x-google-group-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender :list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; b=AosD9TMh2rhI/mktUReWjmOHyGeSO0GpTIeYzmXWZXCRXeuBm1lmTnq/Wlww5m9sIM GggDbAWWSSmtWqY8wgsJf1KW2zbaFbEB/zBSPIXxmggcoLa2RJcjEtTEdvUpWwFIMxXO BfbLbuM66hN53zfoza2MyAiIWymQwdZLhbvW8= Received: by 10.90.70.13 with SMTP id s13mr218671aga.50.1303914096382; Wed, 27 Apr 2011 07:21:36 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.90.3.23 with SMTP id 23ls127633agc.5.gmail; Wed, 27 Apr 2011 07:21:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.236.144.133 with SMTP id n5mr337603yhj.101.1303914095707; Wed, 27 Apr 2011 07:21:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.236.144.133 with SMTP id n5mr337602yhj.101.1303914095698; Wed, 27 Apr 2011 07:21:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nm2-vm0.access.bullet.mail.mud.yahoo.com (nm2-vm0.access.bullet.mail.mud.yahoo.com [66.94.237.66]) by gmr-mx.google.com with SMTP id x65si163184yhn.7.2011.04.27.07.21.34; Wed, 27 Apr 2011 07:21:34 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: best guess record for domain of kali9putra@yahoo.com designates 66.94.237.66 as permitted sender) client-ip=66.94.237.66; Received: from [66.94.237.201] by nm2.access.bullet.mail.mud.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 27 Apr 2011 14:21:34 -0000 Received: from [66.94.237.111] by tm12.access.bullet.mail.mud.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 27 Apr 2011 14:21:34 -0000 Received: from [127.0.0.1] by omp1016.access.mail.mud.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 27 Apr 2011 14:21:34 -0000 X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: ymail-3 X-Yahoo-Newman-Id: 353583.70691.bm@omp1016.access.mail.mud.yahoo.com Received: (qmail 39863 invoked by uid 60001); 27 Apr 2011 14:21:34 -0000 Message-ID: <139232.35077.qm@web81305.mail.mud.yahoo.com> X-YMail-OSG: MAHBe4oVM1nayztc8ufD1XY_Iz0FvboDETsffGE5CXUlBYc guvzyU4CBZN7frEy01jRqdu3pVjDWChV.D58HkmguNNxPUGLv.VFV0igkwtJ FNZklkC2gAdSMHGbX2er7MEN3ODZU9HtePSC6yw5ira5JmRnvrTQsSJpcEG1 ebpmAn3fHzeomgWpf5Pls0IdlbygJVa2sVNzmkKcCIhZSVO0KjdSx4AGKrHv i5IqSvdwbWnKbhBeXdaN0A0pyk0YkKKBdrmwwc2BK08IJMrvaZCVN5CC5enO d7OjdQUsZ8tKzKfL88PU3H5ebhjrm54y7tuiWlnl9uMlC1dFi1waWLfkMx2t r6sEgrSk7LHUnQJu1g0vv.CryYoIdqOchk_kTcIqWvCwL6ZsIxOA_SLPCT_c fC_wz2lMviTjOn5CSYccMH3txgVo5gw-- Received: from [99.92.108.41] by web81305.mail.mud.yahoo.com via HTTP; Wed, 27 Apr 2011 07:21:34 PDT X-Mailer: YahooMailRC/559 YahooMailWebService/0.8.110.299900 References: <29de23a7-9c3b-439e-8bc7-57748489baa7@z37g2000vbl.googlegroups.com> Date: Wed, 27 Apr 2011 07:21:34 -0700 (PDT) From: John E Clifford Subject: Re: [lojban] Lettorals To: lojban@googlegroups.com In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Original-Sender: kali9putra@yahoo.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: best guess record for domain of kali9putra@yahoo.com designates 66.94.237.66 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=kali9putra@yahoo.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@yahoo.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Personally, I've always gone with "handy." ----- Original Message ---- From: Ivo Doko To: lojban@googlegroups.com Sent: Wed, April 27, 2011 8:25:16 AM Subject: Re: [lojban] Lettorals On 27 April 2011 14:02, Michael Turniansky wrote: > Then you have merely shifted the problematic assertion back one > step. Now 3 does follow from 2a, but 2a doesn't follow from 1. Just > because something hasn't yet been seen to arise spontaneously, doesn't > mean it's not easy for someone. No one drove a car before 1850, and > yet 1000s of millions of people do now... Indeed, and people need to go to driving schools and it takes them months to learn how to drive properly and yet years after that to completely master it. When a human being sits in the driver's seat for the first time it could be said that (s)he is confused. It's an extremely tricky discussion and given my unfortunately still lacking skill in lojban I'm afraid we're at an impasse. Specifically, the word I was looking for was not "confusing" exactly and unfortunately I'm not sure if there's even an appropriate word for it in lojban. What I meant to say is that a person who has heard nothing but natural languages since birth will, when confronted with lojban's pronoun system, find it to be... and that's where I need a word which means "foreign", "odd" and "strange" but stronger than an English speaker would find e.g. Arabic or Mandarin foreign, odd and strange. Saying "very foreign, odd and strange" is one solution I guess but that is a bit lacking. I'm not looking for "foreign" as in "featured in a human culture that isn't your own", but "featured in no human culture". "Alien" is, on the other hand, a bit too strong a word for it because it's obviously not alien - people have invented it. -- mu'o mi'e .ivan. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en.