From lojban+bncCML0xpmUARDZ2uDtBBoE9kvZGQ@googlegroups.com Wed Apr 27 07:51:20 2011 Received: from mail-pz0-f61.google.com ([209.85.210.61]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1QF65C-0005rZ-Sm; Wed, 27 Apr 2011 07:51:20 -0700 Received: by pzk4 with SMTP id 4sf1287315pzk.16 for ; Wed, 27 Apr 2011 07:51:09 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version :in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:x-google-group-id:list-post :list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe :content-type; bh=E1ziFz7NzeT5MI6wHJ5KrL3naehCsQ4C3U2ptjp9/Hw=; b=Rvyls10AMVK2M1zuWguuhIhOPbeqcTb3MrVum1dgXluAUcFwdubuq6NHhTceSxMNd9 Ay7WXC4U92XMO4tXCHwE6YErgElx0+IczhMd0/uMJzk3LQchVMrMsPAv2J3g6SXCsRat hLH++lbyZ/qZP1hF8mhMymWsqfNJ0TbCL/H88= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date :message-id:subject:from:to:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:x-google-group-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender :list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; b=WVc/20IeiJf0Hp4Bb0MJPRgg5+C7ZWzrQBXAAC1rUXKrVJi68diu2GcoxmVCVV7GJd 5h7/3CK53pln7U9ZbtJNPjS7sZ+kwvDH6Jvxh/AgbWIuOXnyptpBuHCQtjefklBGlM3i zmdtkgAGLjKW8ztp5vFfwACFwvwEmvaVkx1Ig= Received: by 10.68.62.234 with SMTP id b10mr320483pbs.48.1303915865331; Wed, 27 Apr 2011 07:51:05 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.68.8.3 with SMTP id n3ls1143415pba.3.gmail; Wed, 27 Apr 2011 07:51:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.68.24.70 with SMTP id s6mr361281pbf.47.1303915864275; Wed, 27 Apr 2011 07:51:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.68.24.70 with SMTP id s6mr361280pbf.47.1303915864244; Wed, 27 Apr 2011 07:51:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-ww0-f43.google.com (mail-ww0-f43.google.com [74.125.82.43]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id z4si462604pbi.13.2011.04.27.07.51.03 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Wed, 27 Apr 2011 07:51:04 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of blindbravado@gmail.com designates 74.125.82.43 as permitted sender) client-ip=74.125.82.43; Received: by wwb17 with SMTP id 17so1620108wwb.24 for ; Wed, 27 Apr 2011 07:51:02 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.216.245.4 with SMTP id n4mr2176589wer.88.1303915862056; Wed, 27 Apr 2011 07:51:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.216.13.211 with HTTP; Wed, 27 Apr 2011 07:51:01 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: <29de23a7-9c3b-439e-8bc7-57748489baa7@z37g2000vbl.googlegroups.com> Date: Wed, 27 Apr 2011 10:51:01 -0400 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban] Lettorals From: Ian Johnson To: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Original-Sender: blindbravado@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of blindbravado@gmail.com designates 74.125.82.43 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=blindbravado@gmail.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=e0cb4e43d1bbc661b804a1e7913e --e0cb4e43d1bbc661b804a1e7913e Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 How is this possibly as foreign as Arabic or Mandarin? As has already been said, in written printouts of interviews, this is already used in English for the context of initials. And "alien" does not automatically imply "inhuman"; it's really a connotationally stronger form of "foreign". mu'o mi'e .latros. On Wed, Apr 27, 2011 at 9:25 AM, Ivo Doko wrote: > On 27 April 2011 14:02, Michael Turniansky wrote: > > Then you have merely shifted the problematic assertion back one > > step. Now 3 does follow from 2a, but 2a doesn't follow from 1. Just > > because something hasn't yet been seen to arise spontaneously, doesn't > > mean it's not easy for someone. No one drove a car before 1850, and > > yet 1000s of millions of people do now... > > Indeed, and people need to go to driving schools and it takes them > months to learn how to drive properly and yet years after that to > completely master it. When a human being sits in the driver's seat for > the first time it could be said that (s)he is confused. It's an > extremely tricky discussion and given my unfortunately still lacking > skill in lojban I'm afraid we're at an impasse. Specifically, the word > I was looking for was not "confusing" exactly and unfortunately I'm > not sure if there's even an appropriate word for it in lojban. What I > meant to say is that a person who has heard nothing but natural > languages since birth will, when confronted with lojban's pronoun > system, find it to be... and that's where I need a word which means > "foreign", "odd" and "strange" but stronger than an English speaker > would find e.g. Arabic or Mandarin foreign, odd and strange. Saying > "very foreign, odd and strange" is one solution I guess but that is a > bit lacking. > > I'm not looking for "foreign" as in "featured in a human culture that > isn't your own", but "featured in no human culture". "Alien" is, on > the other hand, a bit too strong a word for it because it's obviously > not alien - people have invented it. > > > -- > mu'o mi'e .ivan. > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "lojban" group. > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. > > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. --e0cb4e43d1bbc661b804a1e7913e Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable How is this possibly as foreign as Arabic or Mandarin? As has already been = said, in written printouts of interviews, this is already used in English f= or the context of initials.

And "alien" does not automatic= ally imply "inhuman"; it's really a connotationally stronger = form of "foreign".

mu'o mi'e .latros.

On Wed, Ap= r 27, 2011 at 9:25 AM, Ivo Doko <ivo.doko@gmail.com> wrote:
On 27 April 2011 14:02, Michael Turniansky <mturniansky@gmail.com> wrote:
> Then you have merely shifted the problematic assertion back one
> step. =A0Now 3 does follow from 2a, but 2a doesn't follow from 1. = =A0Just
> because something hasn't yet been seen to arise spontaneously, doe= sn't
> mean it's not easy for someone. =A0 No one drove a car before 1850= , and
> yet 1000s of millions of people do now...

Indeed, and people need to go to driving schools and it takes them months to learn how to drive properly and yet years after that to
completely master it. When a human being sits in the driver's seat for<= br> the first time it could be said that (s)he is confused. It's an
extremely tricky discussion and given my unfortunately still lacking
skill in lojban I'm afraid we're at an impasse. Specifically, the w= ord
I was looking for was not "confusing" exactly and unfortunately I= 'm
not sure if there's even an appropriate word for it in lojban. What I meant to say is that a person who has heard nothing but natural
languages since birth will, when confronted with lojban's pronoun
system, find it to be... and that's where I need a word which means
"foreign", "odd" and "strange" but stronger t= han an English speaker
would find e.g. Arabic or Mandarin foreign, odd and strange. Saying
"very foreign, odd and strange" is one solution I guess but that = is a
bit lacking.

I'm not looking for "foreign" as in "featured in a human= culture that
isn't your own", but "featured in no human culture". &qu= ot;Alien" is, on
the other hand, a bit too strong a word for it because it's obviously not alien - people have invented it.


--
mu'o mi'e .ivan.

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