From lojban+bncCIycn8S8DhCL6-DtBBoEMzbSqg@googlegroups.com Wed Apr 27 08:26:21 2011 Received: from mail-qw0-f61.google.com ([209.85.216.61]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1QF6d4-0007w6-3Z; Wed, 27 Apr 2011 08:26:20 -0700 Received: by qwh5 with SMTP id 5sf3965703qwh.16 for ; Wed, 27 Apr 2011 08:26:07 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version :in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:x-google-group-id:list-post :list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe :content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=QxImppAQeC5AOwJX25h8AaItvvUoFxafZAMurWi81Ys=; b=L9rxDXI9nZNCYD2wKC8hbQ9dIvoVk6pu8H/xzuZBQi6wLX39FM3dPAxo8hsJuCOzvc lHKr9cEQq7q/AVq2yOmqC3vN8aqVewZTmhfYldYL+nzIudmEKRjVmxyOnh2xZRcd13gd 9CRhui26T9Uac45nKeIIw7q7bXlBtNS+tp1Vs= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date :message-id:subject:from:to:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:x-google-group-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender :list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; b=n16YO9e2CtAVN/dbbga2vI84tBLqfHBZfL5tu+ZD7GJXWG16Cp5OjSKZCOJpD7FtrZ UFWAZBhmegOv6vog1Z0AjVCkglYVCzPbLBr1koiZQMD+iFPMQqn811N2kD8H7ITSUOlx 4vyfeaaRb5Lg0vA0GiC+xVG9tY73c7Dfv9h9c= Received: by 10.224.75.193 with SMTP id z1mr214660qaj.38.1303917963697; Wed, 27 Apr 2011 08:26:03 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.224.179.137 with SMTP id bq9ls156991qab.6.gmail; Wed, 27 Apr 2011 08:26:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.224.189.67 with SMTP id dd3mr170861qab.19.1303917962703; Wed, 27 Apr 2011 08:26:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.224.189.67 with SMTP id dd3mr170860qab.19.1303917962692; Wed, 27 Apr 2011 08:26:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-qw0-f52.google.com (mail-qw0-f52.google.com [209.85.216.52]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id r34si204942qcp.5.2011.04.27.08.26.02 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Wed, 27 Apr 2011 08:26:02 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of mturniansky@gmail.com designates 209.85.216.52 as permitted sender) client-ip=209.85.216.52; Received: by qwb8 with SMTP id 8so950941qwb.25 for ; Wed, 27 Apr 2011 08:26:02 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.229.27.193 with SMTP id j1mr1869481qcc.82.1303917962494; Wed, 27 Apr 2011 08:26:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.229.188.133 with HTTP; Wed, 27 Apr 2011 08:26:02 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: <29de23a7-9c3b-439e-8bc7-57748489baa7@z37g2000vbl.googlegroups.com> Date: Wed, 27 Apr 2011 11:26:02 -0400 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban] Lettorals From: Michael Turniansky To: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Original-Sender: mturniansky@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of mturniansky@gmail.com designates 209.85.216.52 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=mturniansky@gmail.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Wed, Apr 27, 2011 at 9:25 AM, Ivo Doko wrote: > On 27 April 2011 14:02, Michael Turniansky wrote: >> Then you have merely shifted the problematic assertion back one >> step. =A0Now 3 does follow from 2a, but 2a doesn't follow from 1. =A0Jus= t >> because something hasn't yet been seen to arise spontaneously, doesn't >> mean it's not easy for someone. =A0 No one drove a car before 1850, and >> yet 1000s of millions of people do now... > > Indeed, and people need to go to driving schools and it takes them > months to learn how to drive properly and yet years after that to > completely master it. When a human being sits in the driver's seat for > the first time it could be said that (s)he is confused. It's an > extremely tricky discussion and given my unfortunately still lacking > skill in lojban I'm afraid we're at an impasse. Specifically, the word > I was looking for was not "confusing" exactly and unfortunately I'm > not sure if there's even an appropriate word for it in lojban. What I > meant to say is that a person who has heard nothing but natural > languages since birth will, when confronted with lojban's pronoun > system, find it to be... and that's where I need a word which means > "foreign", "odd" and "strange" but stronger than an English speaker > would find e.g. Arabic or Mandarin foreign, odd and strange. Saying > "very foreign, odd and strange" is one solution I guess but that is a > bit lacking. > > I'm not looking for "foreign" as in "featured in a human culture that > isn't your own", but "featured in no human culture". "Alien" is, on > the other hand, a bit too strong a word for it because it's obviously > not alien - people have invented it. > Okay, here I'll be willing to agree with you (and I did) it IS foreign to a natlang speaker. But you seemed to imply that it would also not come naturally (i.e. develop late?) to someone who was brought up only being exposed to lojban, and I defy you to show me that's so. --gejyspa --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou= ps.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= ?hl=3Den.