From lojban+bncCOjSjrXVGBCzhejsBBoE2J9Rvw@googlegroups.com Mon Apr 04 10:41:26 2011 Received: from mail-gx0-f189.google.com ([209.85.161.189]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1Q6nmC-0005CO-Hk; Mon, 04 Apr 2011 10:41:26 -0700 Received: by gxk3 with SMTP id 3sf2972427gxk.16 for ; Mon, 04 Apr 2011 10:41:13 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version :in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:x-google-group-id:list-post :list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe :content-type; bh=mG0cfmzHdJCvNxYeLj9i5SXfE/CjjA98nPYr3pROVc0=; b=0DUOrGyv59l3WJ2b25yJcEyEs++IFJdosCBjt8vxP+gPwLrz00frpvzLooX8V27q5U y+rrMU10NkjWeqk/sgo1TiTuAX936w9NOVpZOURHydfohKoo4mN0lijcUROKIGBpuKl5 CrAG6ishzxim3pmcfHuPs6K7MXSYyo8BVEZ5I= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from :date:message-id:subject:to:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:x-google-group-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender :list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; b=K7+8kv0Y+myCboYv56CcgctLcURFD9zSP6lnBC8uI8DeYTNPX0LlXjuGmpbcJRDO43 py2P9z8zP/eILK4rlKial3i7mXBI4ryqi9iOaax8LDVYFYHG3zo897SUliR0Dtr60A1F 2N901luSeClQd4Y4dgAxtm1ixigSyfmllVhUo= Received: by 10.151.116.13 with SMTP id t13mr1756615ybm.0.1301938867610; Mon, 04 Apr 2011 10:41:07 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.231.1.79 with SMTP id 15ls3937830ibe.0.p; Mon, 04 Apr 2011 10:41:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.231.82.197 with SMTP id c5mr2535917ibl.15.1301938866651; Mon, 04 Apr 2011 10:41:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.231.82.197 with SMTP id c5mr2535916ibl.15.1301938866595; Mon, 04 Apr 2011 10:41:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-iy0-f178.google.com (mail-iy0-f178.google.com [209.85.210.178]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id dz6si1216821ibb.7.2011.04.04.10.41.06 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Mon, 04 Apr 2011 10:41:06 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of lukeabergen@gmail.com designates 209.85.210.178 as permitted sender) client-ip=209.85.210.178; Received: by mail-iy0-f178.google.com with SMTP id 12so6116891iyi.9 for ; Mon, 04 Apr 2011 10:41:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.42.168.6 with SMTP id u6mr5804281icy.46.1301938866381; Mon, 04 Apr 2011 10:41:06 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.231.37.10 with HTTP; Mon, 4 Apr 2011 10:40:46 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: <0a74da06-07cf-4b52-a329-ed0ebbae2f5b@u8g2000yqh.googlegroups.com> From: Luke Bergen Date: Mon, 4 Apr 2011 13:40:46 -0400 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban] Re: I love Lojban's approach, but what's the deal with place tags? To: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Original-Sender: lukeabergen@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of lukeabergen@gmail.com designates 209.85.210.178 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=lukeabergen@gmail.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=90e6ba6e8d06a66e9404a01b4300 --90e6ba6e8d06a66e9404a01b4300 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable No problem from my perspective. You message showed up just fine. You brin= g up some interesting points. For starters, I'm just going to address your concern about the seemingly arbitrary place structure of the gismu. I think defining "verbs" (gismu) with their place structure is a good thing= . It allows for a richness in connotation that is just not possible in other languages. By using SE with a gismu you can describe concepts that are muc= h harder to describe in other languages. How would you say {ve bancu} in english for example? I guarantee that it will take much more verbosity. If you really want to be like turkish and use tags to explicitly state what each sumti is you can always just use BAI or failing that {fi'o + sumti}. e.g. instead of {mi klama lo zarci} (and remembering that {klama} means "x1 comes/goes to destination x2 from origin x3 via route x4 and vehicle x5" yo= u could say {gau mi klama seka'a lo zarci}. And english does the same thing it just looks different and you're accustomed to it. What is the "direct object" of "throw"? What's the direct object of "eat"? In both those situations the "direct object" is a completely different thin= g (a thrown thing vs an eaten thing). Lojban just cuts the crap and says "th= e x2 of {renro} is a thrown thing. Call it 'direct object' if you want, but it's a friggin selrenro whatever you want to call it". There are consistencies though. Destinations usually come before origins. "direct object" type places are usually filled by the x2. For actor - actor relationships (like hit, kiss, hug, etc..) it's usually subject gismu actor2 locus-of-actor1 locus-of-actor2. And there are other common pattern= s as well All that being said, there are some gismu that seem to break from common molds... I can't find any at the moment, but I know people have mentioned them in the past. On Mon, Apr 4, 2011 at 11:12 AM, J T wrote: > I can't see my post in the discussions. Is there a problem? > > > On Mon, Apr 4, 2011 at 3:08 AM, Joel T. wrote: > >> Hi all Lojbanists... >> >> First of all... Wow! Well done to everybody who's worked so hard with >> this language over the years. I applaud the scientific objectives of >> the Lojban project and the tirelessness of its community. >> >> I discovered Lojban while doing researching for a hobby I pursue off >> and on: a universal semantic writing system/syllabary. Imagine a >> Blissymbols-Sona hybrid and you've got the general idea. After making >> some headway on grammar it turns out that I'd stumbled on a Lojban- >> style predicate logic approach, though I hadn't thought of it in those >> terms. >> >> Perhaps I should introduce myself properly: I have no formal training >> as a linguist per se, but I am an English-Turkish bilingual with >> training and several years' experience as an translator and >> interpreter. I often find when reading up on linguistic theory that I >> am just learning the proper terminology for things I have already >> worked out "in the field." Although, don't get me wrong, I'm sure I >> still have much to learn. >> >> I just wanted to share my (probably flawed) impressions about Lojban >> after taking my first few lessons on Lojban for Beginners by Robin >> Turner and Nick Nicholas (http://www.tlg.uci.edu/~opoudjis/ >> lojbanbrochure/lessons/book1.html). Maybe I'm looking at the glass >> half empty, and you can help me find a different perspective. >> >> As I said, I earn my keep by working with English, which relies on >> word order, and Turkish, which uses case endings. Switch two words in >> an English sentence and the meaning can be the opposite of what it was >> before. Completely randomize the words in a Turkish sentence and it >> usually means the same thing. I had always thought the two systems >> were mutually incompatible. >> >> With Lojban, it feels like I'm being taught both systems at once: >> Place structure (like English) and place tags (like Turkish). But >> that's not the worst part. I have to be ready for a sentence >> containing any possible combination of the two! >> >> I know you will say that Lojban dictates word order, so the place tags >> system is not akin to Turkish. But if I'm using place tags, >> semantically speaking there's nothing stopping me from doing what I >> want with word order. This is what happens in Turkish. Technically the >> verb is supposed to come at the end of the sentence, and this is the >> convention in written communication and publishing. But day-to-day, >> people use "devrik c=FCmleler" (flipped sentences) all the time. >> Although the Turkish Language Institute might frown on such usages as >> being "wrong", they're an indispensible part of the language. >> Sometimes the flavour of a "devrik c=FCmle" is completely different to >> the "correct" word order. >> >> If you're serious about letting usage dictate the direction the >> language takes, you have to take this possibility into account. IMO. >> It starts when people get into "bad habits", like using place tags to >> amend sentences after they've been said. Then these usages start to >> assume new roles, like adding emphasis. Before you know it the >> language has whole new features you never planned for. I would venture >> that this would almost certainly happen in any rigorous Sapir-Whorf >> test. >> >> In any case, surely running two systems side-by-side is asking for >> dialectisation (is that a word?), where speakers in one area get used >> to one system while speakers in another prefer the other? >> >> Another grumble is that, if you'll grant me that place tags basically >> amount to a case system, you've got a language where the case system >> is irregular for practically every single verb (gismu?) with 3 or more >> places. I understand the concerns about semantic inaccuracy. So invent >> more cases. How many do you want, 5, 15, 50? I'd learn them all. I'd >> rather learn 50 regular place tags than 5 irregular ones multiplied by >> however many hundred verbs you have. Maybe I'm missing something here, >> but it feels like the Lojban case tag system complicates things for no >> good reason the same way that using abstract symbols instead of an >> alphabet complicates things for no good reason. >> >> Please don't misunderstand all this as a rant against Lojban itself. I >> think all students of all languages have a rant from time to time >> against bits they see as being unnecessarily difficult. I really >> admire the elegance of Lojban, and nothing would make me happier than >> to be proven wrong on all these points. Please see my comments as >> nothing more than the first impressions of a beginner. >> >> Thank you and all the best! >> >> Joel > > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "lojban" group. > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den. > --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou= ps.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= ?hl=3Den. --90e6ba6e8d06a66e9404a01b4300 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable No problem from my perspective. =A0You message showed up just fine. =A0You = bring up some interesting points.

For starters, I'm = just going to address your concern about the seemingly arbitrary place stru= cture of the gismu.

I think defining "verbs" (gismu) with their p= lace structure is a good thing. =A0It allows for a richness in connotation = that is just not possible in other languages. =A0By using SE with a gismu y= ou can describe concepts that are much harder to describe in other language= s. =A0How would you say {ve bancu} in english for example? =A0I=A0guarantee= =A0that it will take much more verbosity.

If you really want to be like turkish and use tags to= =A0explicitly=A0state what each sumti is you can always just use BAI or fai= ling that {fi'o + sumti}.

e.g. instead of {mi = klama lo zarci} (and remembering that {klama} means "x1 comes/goes to = destination x2 from origin x3 via route x4 and vehicle x5" you could s= ay {gau mi klama seka'a lo zarci}.

And english does the same thing it just looks different= and you're accustomed to it. =A0What is the "direct object" = of "throw"? =A0What's the direct object of "eat"?

In both those situations the "direct object" = is a completely different thing (a thrown thing vs an eaten thing). =A0Lojb= an just cuts the crap and says "the x2 of {renro} is a thrown thing. = =A0Call it 'direct object' if you want, but it's a friggin selr= enro whatever you want to call it".

There are consistencies though. =A0Destinations usually= come before origins. =A0"direct object" type places are usually = filled by the x2. =A0For actor - actor relationships (like hit, kiss, hug, = etc..) it's usually subject gismu actor2 locus-of-actor1 locus-of-actor= 2. =A0And there are other common patterns as well

All that being said, there are some gismu that seem to = break from common molds... I can't find any at the moment, but I know p= eople have mentioned them in the past.

On Mon, Apr 4, 2011 at 11:12 AM, J T <joelofarabia@gmail.com> wrote:
<= blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px= #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex;"> I can't see my post in the discussions. Is there a problem?


On Mon, Apr 4, 201= 1 at 3:08 AM, Joel T. <joelofarabia@gmail.com> wrote:
Hi all Lojbanists...
First of all... Wow! Well done to everybody who's worked so hard with this language over the years. I applaud the scientific objectives of
the Lojban project and the tirelessness of its community.

I discovered Lojban while doing researching for a hobby I pursue off
and on: a universal semantic writing system/syllabary. Imagine a
Blissymbols-Sona hybrid and you've got the general idea. After making some headway on grammar it turns out that I'd stumbled on a Lojban-
style predicate logic approach, though I hadn't thought of it in those<= br> terms.

Perhaps I should introduce myself properly: I have no formal training
as a linguist per se, but I am an English-Turkish bilingual with
training and several years' experience as an translator and
interpreter. I often find when reading up on linguistic theory that I
am just learning the proper terminology for things I have already
worked out "in the field." Although, don't get me wrong, I= 9;m sure I
still have much to learn.

I just wanted to share my (probably flawed) impressions about Lojban
after taking my first few lessons on Lojban for Beginners by Robin
Turner and Nick Nicholas (http://www.tlg.uci.edu/~opoudjis/
lojbanbrochure/lessons/book1.html). Maybe I'm looking at the glass
half empty, and you can help me find a different perspective.

As I said, I earn my keep by working with English, which relies on
word order, and Turkish, which uses case endings. Switch two words in
an English sentence and the meaning can be the opposite of what it was
before. Completely randomize the words in a Turkish sentence and it
usually means the same thing. I had always thought the two systems
were mutually incompatible.

With Lojban, it feels like I'm being taught both systems at once:
Place structure (like English) and place tags (like Turkish). But
that's not the worst part. I have to be ready for a sentence
containing any possible combination of the two!

I know you will say that Lojban dictates word order, so the place tags
system is not akin to Turkish. But if I'm using place tags,
semantically speaking there's nothing stopping me from doing what I
want with word order. This is what happens in Turkish. Technically the
verb is supposed to come at the end of the sentence, and this is the
convention in written communication and publishing. But day-to-day,
people use "devrik c=FCmleler" (flipped sentences) all the time.<= br> Although the Turkish Language Institute might frown on such usages as
being "wrong", they're an indispensible part of the language.=
Sometimes the flavour of a "devrik c=FCmle" is completely differe= nt to
the "correct" word order.

If you're serious about letting usage dictate the direction the
language takes, you have to take this possibility into account. IMO.
It starts when people get into "bad habits", like using place tag= s to
amend sentences after they've been said. Then these usages start to
assume new roles, like adding emphasis. Before you know it the
language has whole new features you never planned for. I would venture
that this would almost certainly happen in any rigorous Sapir-Whorf
test.

In any case, surely running two systems side-by-side is asking for
dialectisation (is that a word?), where speakers in one area get used
to one system while speakers in another prefer the other?

Another grumble is that, if you'll grant me that place tags basically amount to a case system, you've got a language where the case system is irregular for practically every single verb (gismu?) with 3 or more
places. I understand the concerns about semantic inaccuracy. So invent
more cases. How many do you want, 5, 15, 50? I'd learn them all. I'= d
rather learn 50 regular place tags than 5 irregular ones multiplied by
however many hundred verbs you have. Maybe I'm missing something here,<= br> but it feels like the Lojban case tag system complicates things for no
good reason the same way that using abstract symbols instead of an
alphabet complicates things for no good reason.

Please don't misunderstand all this as a rant against Lojban itself. I<= br> think all students of all languages have a rant from time to time
against bits they see as being unnecessarily difficult. I really
admire the elegance of Lojban, and nothing would make me happier than
to be proven wrong on all these points. Please see my comments as
nothing more than the first impressions of a beginner.

Thank you and all the best!

Joel

--
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To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou= ps.com.
For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojba= n?hl=3Den.

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group.
To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou= ps.com.
For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= ?hl=3Den.
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