From lojban+bncCOWVnJObDhCp2OvsBBoEi7ahfg@googlegroups.com Tue Apr 05 03:17:31 2011 Received: from mail-vw0-f61.google.com ([209.85.212.61]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1Q73KA-00073K-IT; Tue, 05 Apr 2011 03:17:30 -0700 Received: by vws2 with SMTP id 2sf106938vws.16 for ; Tue, 05 Apr 2011 03:17:20 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:x-beenthere:mime-version:date:in-reply-to:x-ip :references:user-agent:x-http-via:x-http-useragent:message-id :subject:from:to:x-original-sender:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:x-google-group-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender :list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; bh=Rud5TOV1YkMcbjCtEme/kxVa2c9fgFCx69RDN8OvQW8=; b=xx3xg/l4jFKKQC2nnswhoS44+D0+TRVcxMizrFh1AS7NI9Ynibs55pKhRCgEZumorj 6EoSywaS04eFrXgiUaibdinFkgmUWpXzzFcj36mmH+zc8Y0X5p3+M4TqwgKrjr/zsJZD 1r1Gps2wJ4+55ur/gFK4lPkSTPZpCQvgm7Z7A= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:mime-version:date:in-reply-to:x-ip:references :user-agent:x-http-via:x-http-useragent:message-id:subject:from:to :x-original-sender:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list:list-id :x-google-group-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender :list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; b=2vFI+Oh9fPi8k4ymHsVYxEYQ176ftcQchQJTU9wsJQm2GzQ47UAgq8ZhmxC769HgX3 wltYkm5C64uNTEh14yn9iqzsqIQzZmjSIVRnPbyzrc0PGoW6pSVrKH1zAHSVfN9V/XPv En8+GafRScz0rbj37o385HnuvYjLEcQxQ31l8= Received: by 10.220.62.202 with SMTP id y10mr175991vch.56.1301998633894; Tue, 05 Apr 2011 03:17:13 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.220.100.195 with SMTP id z3ls2180262vcn.2.p; Tue, 05 Apr 2011 03:17:13 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.220.129.9 with SMTP id m9mr173441vcs.5.1301998633034; Tue, 05 Apr 2011 03:17:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: by e8g2000vbz.googlegroups.com with HTTP; Tue, 5 Apr 2011 03:17:12 -0700 (PDT) Date: Tue, 5 Apr 2011 03:17:12 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: X-IP: 88.250.85.74 References: <0a74da06-07cf-4b52-a329-ed0ebbae2f5b@u8g2000yqh.googlegroups.com> User-Agent: G2/1.0 X-HTTP-Via: 1.1 bsna.tur.wtbts.net:3128 (squid/2.7.STABLE7), 1.0 bsna.tur.wtbts.net:3128 (squid/2.7.STABLE7) X-HTTP-UserAgent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 6.0; en-GB; rv:1.9.2.16) Gecko/20110319 Firefox/3.6.16 ( .NET CLR 3.5.30729),gzip(gfe) Message-ID: Subject: [lojban] Re: I love Lojban's approach, but what's the deal with place tags? From: "Joel T." To: lojban X-Original-Sender: joelofarabia@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable That was my point exactly. True fluency means completely internalizing a language so that the words just flow out of your mouth without thinking. You're completely "out of the book" to use a chess expression. And a community of truly fluent people would be influenced more by each other than any conscious thought given to the official rules of grammar. A true Sapir-Whorf test would demand nothing less. The point I'm making about running two systems side-by-side is that in any community of truly fluent people, either one of them would get phased out, or they would diverge in meaning, usage, connotation etc. At the very least it would become a way of differentiating between cliques, which is the thin end of the wedge for dialectisation. You just can't have two ways of doing exactly the same thing with only whim to choose between them. It's great in class, but in the field it's not tenable. It's not how language works. On Apr 4, 10:04=A0pm, Luke Bergen wrote: > I think his point was that these dialectic splits could result in two gro= ups > of people not being able to understand one another. > > If one group of people liked using the place structure so much that they > just ignored FA what would happen if they saw something like {fi lo zdani= cu > klama fa mi lo zarci} and got completely confused (you know, cuz generati= ons > later FA =A0would have basically been dropped out of the language by this > group). > > On Mon, Apr 4, 2011 at 2:35 PM, Michael Turniansky wrote: > > > > > On Sun, Apr 3, 2011 at 8:08 PM, Joel T. wrote: > > >> In any case, surely running two systems side-by-side is asking for > >> dialectisation (is that a word?), where speakers in one area get used > >> to one system while speakers in another prefer the other? > > > =A0 It can, and does. =A0But we consider the flexibility to be a plus. = =A0That > > way, any person coming from a natural language background of say, Turki= sh, > > can from sentences the way that seems most natural to them, while someo= ne > > coming from an English background can form setnences the most natural w= ay to > > them. =A0And both will be understood equally well. =A0We had, for examp= le, a > > while a back, a discussion over which was "better": to use "cu" often, = or to > > totally eschew it in favor of sumti that are competely terminated so th= at > > there was no need for it (i.e. "lo gerku cu barda" vs. "lo gerku ku > > barda"). =A0There are vocal proponents on each side, so it amounts to a > > dialectical split, but.. so what? > > =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0--gejyspa > > > -- > > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Grou= ps > > "lojban" group. > > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > > lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > > For more options, visit this group at > >http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den. --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou= ps.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= ?hl=3Den.