From lojban+bncCOib25n_BhDE-ezsBBoEYbxBPw@googlegroups.com Tue Apr 05 09:01:27 2011 Received: from mail-gy0-f189.google.com ([209.85.160.189]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1Q78gy-0007IV-Vt; Tue, 05 Apr 2011 09:01:27 -0700 Received: by gyf1 with SMTP id 1sf1051147gyf.16 for ; Tue, 05 Apr 2011 09:01:14 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version:sender :in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to:cc :x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:x-google-group-id:list-post :list-help:list-archive:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=xWfGSK+KWzLrMYBu8CV1216cvYJ3H8XJXJ8/yi7rT2E=; b=0Qx7g88Cxi63XKWBKnY9/WpDTwgWN99yQoBEr8tjIQ9NocxK5Z2pV51ZtzG/sFtHl2 guX5Dxmj64npgJeRN4S6exSoA9aGGxgt28BHtQ5AfYRgbcWYz7w8I4VwxZj4U/3SC6IG 8b96eV9Wup82Uls8zbK7aUgdBrcRitw9+NIF8= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references :date:message-id:subject:from:to:cc:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:x-google-group-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; b=We3ihXinnyZvjQtNu9Qj5xvlMq20RiyFzI9CuWjp5IYgy6VIsjPdNH7lKH78LyesCV aye6ZvjirtdfrwKrOhn1uB3LT/emXRoKxyDJ6HqWdvnDpT3EaksOvLgLZqg7pftnhLfy MhG4o99NIbMqm/xSCJi1mwRsIvgB/biIqzlNk= Received: by 10.91.66.30 with SMTP id t30mr128715agk.4.1302019268481; Tue, 05 Apr 2011 09:01:08 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.231.1.79 with SMTP id 15ls4958069ibe.0.p; Tue, 05 Apr 2011 09:01:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.231.82.197 with SMTP id c5mr2862331ibl.15.1302019267528; Tue, 05 Apr 2011 09:01:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.231.82.197 with SMTP id c5mr2862330ibl.15.1302019267474; Tue, 05 Apr 2011 09:01:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-iy0-f179.google.com (mail-iy0-f179.google.com [209.85.210.179]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id d14si1426178ibi.1.2011.04.05.09.01.06 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Tue, 05 Apr 2011 09:01:06 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of rpglover64@gmail.com designates 209.85.210.179 as permitted sender) client-ip=209.85.210.179; Received: by iym7 with SMTP id 7so623776iym.24 for ; Tue, 05 Apr 2011 09:01:06 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.42.97.69 with SMTP id m5mr12541087icn.116.1302019265888; Tue, 05 Apr 2011 09:01:05 -0700 (PDT) Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.42.175.201 with HTTP; Tue, 5 Apr 2011 09:01:05 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: <0a74da06-07cf-4b52-a329-ed0ebbae2f5b@u8g2000yqh.googlegroups.com> Date: Tue, 5 Apr 2011 12:01:05 -0400 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban] Re: I love Lojban's approach, but what's the deal with place tags? From: ".arpis." To: lojban@googlegroups.com Cc: "Joel T." X-Original-Sender: rpglover64@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of rpglover64@gmail.com designates 209.85.210.179 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=rpglover64@gmail.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=20cf303bfb32d5817404a02dfb6b --20cf303bfb32d5817404a02dfb6b Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 I'm biased, but I find the English structure to be more understandable and natural, and not only because I speak English. The selbri comes early in the sentence, allowing the listener to start understanding the relationships between the sumti before the sentence is finished, and FA tags, unlike case endings, have no intrinsic meaning apart from the selbri. Also, as I understand it, the FA tags are meant to provide the facility to reorder sentences when it is convenient, e.g. {mi klama fu lo karce}, not to allow arbitrary re-orderings; that's what BAI can be for. A somewhat contrived example: {kla la .suzyn. xekla lo karce tekla la .berlin. sekla la .paris. co'e} On Tue, Apr 5, 2011 at 11:36 AM, Joel T. wrote: > OK, fair enough. I hope my comments didn't seem overly dogmatic. If > indeed as you say all these elements are indispensable then I am > wrong, and as I said in my original post, I couldn't be happier! > > In that case it would be like me saying that English is flawed because > you can remove all the words of French origin and you'd still have a > complete language. The premise is correct, but the inertia of current > usage means that this will never happen. I just never thought that > such variety could be present in the grammar of a language and not > just the vocabulary. > > I suppose I should have really started by giving an example. In > Chapter 2 of Lojban for Beginners (http://www.tlg.uci.edu/~opoudjis/ > lojbanbrochure/lessons/less2changeplaces.html), if I have understood > correctly it basically tells me that if I feel like it I can say (and > therefore have to be able to understand): > > la suzyn. klama la paris. la berlin. zo'e le karce (English structure) > > and > > la suzyn. fu le karce fi la berlin. fe la paris. klama (Turkish > structure) > > You can imagine how hard it is for native English speakers to get used > to Turkish sentence structure, in fact my parents never quite did. At > least in Turkish when you change the structure of a sentence you do it > for a reason, like emphasis. But Lojban expects me to be able to adapt > mid-paragraph for somebody who uses any and all possible sentence > structures on a whim! My brain would flip! > > Everything I know about language tells me that people get used to > expressing themselves according to specific structures. Which is why I > arrived at the conclusion that any population of fluent Lojban > speakers would very quickly get used to ordering certain sentences in > certain ways instead of constantly mixing up their grammar, which > requires conscious thought. > > Again, please do correct me if I'm wrong, and I get the feeling I > probably am. I would like to thank everybody who has replied to my > original post for taking it in the spirit intended. You have all > encouraged me to take a closer look at Lojban! > > On Apr 5, 5:22 pm, Luke Bergen wrote: > > Yeah Joel, I think what you're missing at this early stage in your > learning > > is that both FA *and* knowing the place structures are extremely > important > > if you want to be fluent. > > > > I understand your concerns. You agreed that I was representing your > > argument accurately. What you may have misunderstood was that my last > > paragraph about "if one group of people liked the place structure.... > been > > dropped out of the language by this group)" was mildly sarcastic. > > > > The idea of a group of people using lojban and simply forgetting/dropping > FA > > and/or the default place structure of the gismu is completely absurd. It > > could happen, but it would take (my guess) centuries of shifting for that > to > > happen. It's so fundamental to a proper understanding of the language > that > > if anyone dropped FA or began forgetting the place structures, I would > argue > > that it was darn-near a completely different language. > > > > I'd put it on par with English switching to a system more like what they > > have in Turkey (as you describe it). Such a thing would be (at best) an > > extremely bastardized version of English. Likewise, lojban without FA > would > > be quite a stretch. > > > > On Tue, Apr 5, 2011 at 6:17 AM, Joel T. wrote: > > > That was my point exactly. True fluency means completely internalizing > > > a language so that the words just flow out of your mouth without > > > thinking. You're completely "out of the book" to use a chess > > > expression. And a community of truly fluent people would be influenced > > > more by each other than any conscious thought given to the official > > > rules of grammar. A true Sapir-Whorf test would demand nothing less. > > > > > The point I'm making about running two systems side-by-side is that in > > > any community of truly fluent people, either one of them would get > > > phased out, or they would diverge in meaning, usage, connotation etc. > > > At the very least it would become a way of differentiating between > > > cliques, which is the thin end of the wedge for dialectisation. You > > > just can't have two ways of doing exactly the same thing with only > > > whim to choose between them. It's great in class, but in the field > > > it's not tenable. It's not how language works. > > > > > On Apr 4, 10:04 pm, Luke Bergen wrote: > > > > I think his point was that these dialectic splits could result in two > > > groups > > > > of people not being able to understand one another. > > > > > > If one group of people liked using the place structure so much that > they > > > > just ignored FA what would happen if they saw something like {fi lo > zdani > > > cu > > > > klama fa mi lo zarci} and got completely confused (you know, cuz > > > generations > > > > later FA would have basically been dropped out of the language by > this > > > > group). > > > > > > On Mon, Apr 4, 2011 at 2:35 PM, Michael Turniansky < > > > mturnian...@gmail.com>wrote: > > > > > > > On Sun, Apr 3, 2011 at 8:08 PM, Joel T. > > > wrote: > > > > > > >> In any case, surely running two systems side-by-side is asking for > > > > >> dialectisation (is that a word?), where speakers in one area get > used > > > > >> to one system while speakers in another prefer the other? > > > > > > > It can, and does. But we consider the flexibility to be a plus. > > > That > > > > > way, any person coming from a natural language background of say, > > > Turkish, > > > > > can from sentences the way that seems most natural to them, while > > > someone > > > > > coming from an English background can form setnences the most > natural > > > way to > > > > > them. And both will be understood equally well. We had, for > example, > > > a > > > > > while a back, a discussion over which was "better": to use "cu" > often, > > > or to > > > > > totally eschew it in favor of sumti that are competely terminated > so > > > that > > > > > there was no need for it (i.e. "lo gerku cu barda" vs. "lo gerku ku > > > > > barda"). There are vocal proponents on each side, so it amounts to > a > > > > > dialectical split, but.. so what? > > > > > --gejyspa > > > > > > > -- > > > > > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google > > > Groups > > > > > "lojban" group. > > > > > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > > > > > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > > > > > lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > > > > > For more options, visit this group at > > > > >http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. > > > > > -- > > > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google > Groups > > > "lojban" group. > > > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > > > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > > > lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > > > For more options, visit this group at > > >http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "lojban" group. > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. > > -- mu'o mi'e .arpis. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. --20cf303bfb32d5817404a02dfb6b Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I'm biased, but I find the English structure to be more understandable = and natural, and not only because I speak English.

The selbri comes = early in the sentence, allowing the listener to start understanding the rel= ationships between the sumti before the sentence is finished, and FA tags, = unlike case endings, have no intrinsic meaning apart from the selbri.

Also, as I understand it, the FA tags are meant to provide the facility= to reorder sentences when it is convenient, e.g. {mi klama fu lo karce}, n= ot to allow arbitrary re-orderings; that's what BAI can be for.=A0 A so= mewhat contrived example: {kla la .suzyn. xekla lo karce tekla la .berlin. = sekla la .paris. co'e}

On Tue, Apr 5, 2011 at 11:36 AM, Joel T. <joelofarabia@g= mail.com> wrote:
OK, fair enough. I hope my comments didn't seem overly dogmatic. If
indeed as you say all these elements are indispensable then I am
wrong, and as I said in my original post, I couldn't be happier!

In that case it would be like me saying that English is flawed because
you can remove all the words of French origin and you'd still have a complete language. The premise is correct, but the inertia of current
usage means that this will never happen. I just never thought that
such variety could be present in the grammar of a language and not
just the vocabulary.

I suppose I should have really started by giving an example. In
Chapter 2 of Lojban for Beginners (h= ttp://www.tlg.uci.edu/~opoudjis/
lojbanbrochure/lessons/less2changeplaces.html), if I have understood correctly it basically tells me that if I feel like it I can say (and
therefore have to be able to understand):

la suzyn. klama la paris. la berlin. zo'e le karce (English structure)<= br>
and

la suzyn. fu le karce fi la berlin. fe la paris. klama (Turkish
structure)

You can imagine how hard it is for native English speakers to get used
to Turkish sentence structure, in fact my parents never quite did. At
least in Turkish when you change the structure of a sentence you do it
for a reason, like emphasis. But Lojban expects me to be able to adapt
mid-paragraph for somebody who uses any and all possible sentence
structures on a whim! My brain would flip!

Everything I know about language tells me that people get used to
expressing themselves according to specific structures. Which is why I
arrived at the conclusion that any population of fluent Lojban
speakers would very quickly get used to ordering certain sentences in
certain ways instead of constantly mixing up their grammar, which
requires conscious thought.

Again, please do correct me if I'm wrong, and I get the feeling I
probably am. I would like to thank everybody who has replied to my
original post for taking it in the spirit intended. You have all
encouraged me to take a closer look at Lojban!

On Apr 5, 5:22=A0pm, Luke Bergen <lukeaber...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Yeah Joel, I think what you're missing at this early stage in your= learning
> is that both FA *and* knowing the place structures are extremely impor= tant
> if you want to be fluent.
>
> I understand your concerns. =A0You agreed that I was representing your=
> argument accurately. =A0What you may have misunderstood was that my la= st
> paragraph about "if one group of people liked the place structure= .... been
> dropped out of the language by this group)" was mildly sarcastic.=
>
> The idea of a group of people using lojban and simply forgetting/dropp= ing FA
> and/or the default place structure of the gismu is completely absurd. = =A0It
> could happen, but it would take (my guess) centuries of shifting for t= hat to
> happen. =A0It's so fundamental to a proper understanding of the la= nguage that
> if anyone dropped FA or began forgetting the place structures, I would= argue
> that it was darn-near a completely different language.
>
> I'd put it on par with English switching to a system more like wha= t they
> have in Turkey (as you describe it). =A0Such a thing would be (at best= ) an
> extremely bastardized version of English. =A0Likewise, lojban without = FA would
> be quite a stretch.
>
> On Tue, Apr 5, 2011 at 6:17 AM= , Joel T. <joelofara...@gmail.= com> wrote:
> > That was my point exactly. True fluency means completely internal= izing
> > a language so that the words just flow out of your mouth without<= br> > > thinking. You're completely "out of the book" to us= e a chess
> > expression. And a community of truly fluent people would be influ= enced
> > more by each other than any conscious thought given to the offici= al
> > rules of grammar. A true Sapir-Whorf test would demand nothing le= ss.
>
> > The point I'm making about running two systems side-by-side i= s that in
> > any community of truly fluent people, either one of them would ge= t
> > phased out, or they would diverge in meaning, usage, connotation = etc.
> > At the very least it would become a way of differentiating betwee= n
> > cliques, which is the thin end of the wedge for dialectisation. Y= ou
> > just can't have two ways of doing exactly the same thing with= only
> > whim to choose between them. It's great in class, but in the = field
> > it's not tenable. It's not how language works.
>
> > On Apr 4, 10:04 pm, Luke Bergen <lukeaber...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > I think his point was that these dialectic splits could resu= lt in two
> > groups
> > > of people not being able to understand one another.
>
> > > If one group of people liked using the place structure so mu= ch that they
> > > just ignored FA what would happen if they saw something like= {fi lo zdani
> > cu
> > > klama fa mi lo zarci} and got completely confused (you know,= cuz
> > generations
> > > later FA =A0would have basically been dropped out of the lan= guage by this
> > > group).
>
> > > On Mon, Apr 4, 2011 at 2:35 PM, Michael Turniansky <
> > mturnian...@gmail.com>wrote:
>
> > > > On Sun, Apr 3, 2011 at 8:08 PM, Joel T. <joelofara...@gmail.com>
> > wrote:
>
> > > >> In any case, surely running two systems side-by-sid= e is asking for
> > > >> dialectisation (is that a word?), where speakers in= one area get used
> > > >> to one system while speakers in another prefer the = other?
>
> > > > =A0 It can, and does. =A0But we consider the flexibilit= y to be a plus.
> > =A0That
> > > > way, any person coming from a natural language backgrou= nd of say,
> > Turkish,
> > > > can from sentences the way that seems most natural to t= hem, while
> > someone
> > > > coming from an English background can form setnences th= e most natural
> > way to
> > > > them. =A0And both will be understood equally well. =A0W= e had, for example,
> > a
> > > > while a back, a discussion over which was "better&= quot;: to use "cu" often,
> > or to
> > > > totally eschew it in favor of sumti that are competely = terminated so
> > that
> > > > there was no need for it (i.e. "lo gerku cu barda&= quot; vs. "lo gerku ku
> > > > barda"). =A0There are vocal proponents on each sid= e, so it amounts to a
> > > > dialectical split, but.. so what?
> > > > =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0--gejyspa
>
> > > > --
> > > > You received this message because you are subscribed to= the Google
> > Groups
> > > > "lojban" group.
> > > > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
> > > > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to
> > > > lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
> > > > For more options, visit this group at
> > > >http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den.
>
> > --
> > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Googl= e Groups
> > "lojban" group.
> > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
> > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to
> > lojban+u= nsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
> > For more options, visit this group at
> >http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den.

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups &= quot;lojban" group.
To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojba= n?hl=3Den.




--
mu'o mi= 'e .arpis.

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group.
To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou= ps.com.
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--20cf303bfb32d5817404a02dfb6b--