From lojban+bncCNTPpI2KGxCA-uzsBBoEDTYcBg@googlegroups.com Tue Apr 05 09:02:29 2011 Received: from mail-vw0-f61.google.com ([209.85.212.61]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1Q78hw-0007QA-VM; Tue, 05 Apr 2011 09:02:29 -0700 Received: by vws2 with SMTP id 2sf295565vws.16 for ; Tue, 05 Apr 2011 09:02:15 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:x-beenthere:received-spf:x-authority-analysis :x-cloudmark-score:x-originating-ip:from:to:subject:date:user-agent :references:in-reply-to:mime-version:message-id:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:x-google-group-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender :list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type :content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition; bh=pRisnGfZD0M8020VHHTUoi+6kMIJjWdxopAHdCJZ2u0=; b=UvIAunMSff2yv18BaMMNhdgcCzrqgZgnOBSD+mjunyU0g0jADCG/YRZpCKUIbQy+/Q NrxS31drxJCfA5MVfkEGE1Oojz2aeJ0ZmeUmGDXTNyW5wLnqOBXV7kmD0j7AP31kDtbG PZq1FdWIpG+3c9X5nPFP03vz2BnjdqVgewI/g= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:x-authority-analysis:x-cloudmark-score :x-originating-ip:from:to:subject:date:user-agent:references :in-reply-to:mime-version:message-id:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:x-google-group-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender :list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type :content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition; b=RGEGfCIM2+/d/Phmb4EIN+ZujugI6XlmTaJrIFisHtGWN31lWl4OlbupOEstxaPmd9 xt19vsGu0ZSrU690ef6uccR75mU0sbN0lmEvjsdFfyDSQm9RaHTP298ij2Bw+orNMF4p SacFC85wbkbfCIC8EyZQS9ZCMhT1HjKivw9F4= Received: by 10.220.189.73 with SMTP id dd9mr233685vcb.46.1302019328699; Tue, 05 Apr 2011 09:02:08 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.220.173.66 with SMTP id o2ls789107vcz.5.p; Tue, 05 Apr 2011 09:02:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.52.88.72 with SMTP id be8mr1804254vdb.9.1302019327842; Tue, 05 Apr 2011 09:02:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.52.88.72 with SMTP id be8mr1804253vdb.9.1302019327831; Tue, 05 Apr 2011 09:02:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from cdptpa-omtalb.mail.rr.com (cdptpa-omtalb.mail.rr.com [75.180.132.121]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTP id b16si1397617vby.2.2011.04.05.09.02.06; Tue, 05 Apr 2011 09:02:06 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: neutral (google.com: 75.180.132.121 is neither permitted nor denied by best guess record for domain of phma@phma.optus.nu) client-ip=75.180.132.121; X-Authority-Analysis: v=1.1 cv=ToWar1fa9ljTHbeJIRNQycBnYxCRNi5M/11QAwRcJ6A= c=1 sm=0 a=6ti_TD8eFm8A:10 a=PCBRVSAKR9wA:10 a=wPDyFdB5xvgA:10 a=8nJEP1OIZ-IA:10 a=9o99xeNKNPYSmM5t9x5+TQ==:17 a=WORkjKjCOk51KK8Hw6AA:9 a=wPNLvfGTeEIA:10 a=9o99xeNKNPYSmM5t9x5+TQ==:117 X-Cloudmark-Score: 0 X-Originating-IP: 75.176.118.168 Received: from [75.176.118.168] ([75.176.118.168:39495] helo=chausie) by cdptpa-oedge04.mail.rr.com (envelope-from ) (ecelerity 2.2.3.46 r()) with ESMTP id 5E/62-29678-DFC3B9D4; Tue, 05 Apr 2011 16:02:06 +0000 Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by chausie (Postfix) with ESMTP id 15C53ECBE for ; Tue, 5 Apr 2011 12:02:05 -0400 (EDT) From: Pierre Abbat To: lojban@googlegroups.com Subject: Re: [lojban] Re: I love Lojban's approach, but what's the deal with place tags? Date: Tue, 5 Apr 2011 12:01:57 -0400 User-Agent: KMail/1.9.6 (enterprise 0.20070907.709405) References: <0a74da06-07cf-4b52-a329-ed0ebbae2f5b@u8g2000yqh.googlegroups.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: <201104051201.59228.phma@phma.optus.nu> X-Original-Sender: phma@phma.optus.nu X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=neutral (google.com: 75.180.132.121 is neither permitted nor denied by best guess record for domain of phma@phma.optus.nu) smtp.mail=phma@phma.optus.nu Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline On Tuesday 05 April 2011 11:36:04 Joel T. wrote: > la suzyn. klama la paris. la berlin. zo'e le karce (English structure) > > and > > la suzyn. fu le karce fi la berlin. fe la paris. klama (Turkish > structure) > > You can imagine how hard it is for native English speakers to get used > to Turkish sentence structure, in fact my parents never quite did. At > least in Turkish when you change the structure of a sentence you do it > for a reason, like emphasis. But Lojban expects me to be able to adapt > mid-paragraph for somebody who uses any and all possible sentence > structures on a whim! My brain would flip! The Turkish order above I find highly marked, and with three sumti places= =20 marked with FA I don't know what's supposed to be emphasized. I think "la= =20 suzyn. klama la paris. la berlin. fu le karce" and "la suzyn. la paris. la= =20 berlin. fu le karce cu klama" are both unmarked. The version with "zo'e"=20 calls a slight attention to the non-statement of the route. In the absence = of=20 skipped places, conjunctions which have to have the same sumti in the same= =20 place of two different selbri, and attempts to mimic foreign word order or= =20 fit scansion, I think a normal limit is one SE on the selbri and one sumti= =20 marked with FA. Pierre --=20 When a barnacle settles down, its brain disintegrates. J=E1 n=E3o percebe nada, j=E1 n=E3o percebe nada. --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou= ps.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= ?hl=3Den.