From lojban+bncCLr6ktCfBBDWiu3sBBoEfNZ3Eg@googlegroups.com Tue Apr 05 09:38:47 2011 Received: from mail-pw0-f61.google.com ([209.85.160.61]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1Q79H9-00069m-Eg; Tue, 05 Apr 2011 09:38:47 -0700 Received: by pwi1 with SMTP id 1sf149485pwi.16 for ; Tue, 05 Apr 2011 09:38:37 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:x-beenthere:received-spf:date:from:to:subject :message-id:mail-followup-to:references:mime-version:in-reply-to :x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:x-google-group-id:list-post :list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe :content-type:content-disposition; bh=gOnpb3y4z1sivUKZ41fnfui/QzNsUZbsk8vE0aFXKDI=; b=4+eNuEra9LZ9DTvbkI/MyZ+vqLJrl7iTBk2brD7Aluf0N35H/eDFMCrBC2suD0K8MD Db+Jrx3QyzFd7pE5D8XQlFttkP0Yji+QSA0lONSTPouS0Wk7nMh9HSXdiCdlmNatr0wz TqzSlCfli/1PapMU/qNIpe9WVDHsqGJU9PSUc= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:date:from:to:subject:message-id :mail-followup-to:references:mime-version:in-reply-to :x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:x-google-group-id:list-post :list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe :content-type:content-disposition; b=fAzPOlg/YqNOkaLoNZbEhzdJb6k+EKlXgOjXR9S5beMECkLPQXb3xcnkJek1XPwqsS rr9+pcBKI1S3lqf94qUZ5540veTHK14mWBYD8uCMJ4QuKcwdBaMork6rqcMN/nrnTxSf +8ngS1FbIVlw9LgLFyMzjX1KhlPMxpx5FuyQo= Received: by 10.142.139.21 with SMTP id m21mr66510wfd.64.1302021462588; Tue, 05 Apr 2011 09:37:42 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.142.201.17 with SMTP id y17ls4781064wff.0.p; Tue, 05 Apr 2011 09:37:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.142.202.16 with SMTP id z16mr7515397wff.27.1302021460736; Tue, 05 Apr 2011 09:37:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.142.202.16 with SMTP id z16mr7515394wff.27.1302021460677; Tue, 05 Apr 2011 09:37:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-pw0-f47.google.com (mail-pw0-f47.google.com [209.85.160.47]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id 28si6395267wfb.2.2011.04.05.09.37.39 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Tue, 05 Apr 2011 09:37:39 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: neutral (google.com: 209.85.160.47 is neither permitted nor denied by best guess record for domain of alanpost@sunflowerriver.org) client-ip=209.85.160.47; Received: by pwj9 with SMTP id 9so238439pwj.6 for ; Tue, 05 Apr 2011 09:37:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.142.177.14 with SMTP id z14mr7805613wfe.234.1302021458667; Tue, 05 Apr 2011 09:37:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sunflowerriver.org (c-68-35-164-105.hsd1.nm.comcast.net [68.35.164.105]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id o1sm1829567wfl.9.2011.04.05.09.37.35 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Tue, 05 Apr 2011 09:37:37 -0700 (PDT) Date: Tue, 5 Apr 2011 10:37:32 -0600 From: ".alyn.post." To: lojban@googlegroups.com Subject: Re: [lojban] Re: I love Lojban's approach, but what's the deal with place tags? Message-ID: <20110405163732.GA11417@alice.local> Mail-Followup-To: lojban@googlegroups.com References: <0a74da06-07cf-4b52-a329-ed0ebbae2f5b@u8g2000yqh.googlegroups.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: X-Original-Sender: alyn.post@lodockikumazvati.org X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=neutral (google.com: 209.85.160.47 is neither permitted nor denied by best guess record for domain of alanpost@sunflowerriver.org) smtp.mail=alanpost@sunflowerriver.org Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline doi .arpis. .i ko xu ba cusku ke'a goi lu .i mi djica lo za'i ponse fa do lo rokci li'u poi na pilno zo fa .i mi na jimpe lo cusku be ke'a .i mu'o mi'e .alyn. On Tue, Apr 05, 2011 at 12:01:05PM -0400, .arpis. wrote: > I'm biased, but I find the English structure to be more understandable and > natural, and not only because I speak English. > > The selbri comes early in the sentence, allowing the listener to start > understanding the relationships between the sumti before the sentence is > finished, and FA tags, unlike case endings, have no intrinsic meaning > apart from the selbri. > > Also, as I understand it, the FA tags are meant to provide the facility to > reorder sentences when it is convenient, e.g. {mi klama fu lo karce}, not > to allow arbitrary re-orderings; that's what BAI can be for. A somewhat > contrived example: {kla la .suzyn. xekla lo karce tekla la .berlin. sekla > la .paris. co'e} > > On Tue, Apr 5, 2011 at 11:36 AM, Joel T. <[1]joelofarabia@gmail.com> > wrote: > > OK, fair enough. I hope my comments didn't seem overly dogmatic. If > indeed as you say all these elements are indispensable then I am > wrong, and as I said in my original post, I couldn't be happier! > > In that case it would be like me saying that English is flawed because > you can remove all the words of French origin and you'd still have a > complete language. The premise is correct, but the inertia of current > usage means that this will never happen. I just never thought that > such variety could be present in the grammar of a language and not > just the vocabulary. > > I suppose I should have really started by giving an example. In > Chapter 2 of Lojban for Beginners ([2]http://www.tlg.uci.edu/~opoudjis/ > lojbanbrochure/lessons/less2changeplaces.html), if I have understood > correctly it basically tells me that if I feel like it I can say (and > therefore have to be able to understand): > > la suzyn. klama la paris. la berlin. zo'e le karce (English structure) > > and > > la suzyn. fu le karce fi la berlin. fe la paris. klama (Turkish > structure) > > You can imagine how hard it is for native English speakers to get used > to Turkish sentence structure, in fact my parents never quite did. At > least in Turkish when you change the structure of a sentence you do it > for a reason, like emphasis. But Lojban expects me to be able to adapt > mid-paragraph for somebody who uses any and all possible sentence > structures on a whim! My brain would flip! > > Everything I know about language tells me that people get used to > expressing themselves according to specific structures. Which is why I > arrived at the conclusion that any population of fluent Lojban > speakers would very quickly get used to ordering certain sentences in > certain ways instead of constantly mixing up their grammar, which > requires conscious thought. > > Again, please do correct me if I'm wrong, and I get the feeling I > probably am. I would like to thank everybody who has replied to my > original post for taking it in the spirit intended. You have all > encouraged me to take a closer look at Lojban! > On Apr 5, 5:22 pm, Luke Bergen <[3]lukeaber...@gmail.com> wrote: > > Yeah Joel, I think what you're missing at this early stage in your > learning > > is that both FA *and* knowing the place structures are extremely > important > > if you want to be fluent. > > > > I understand your concerns. You agreed that I was representing your > > argument accurately. What you may have misunderstood was that my last > > paragraph about "if one group of people liked the place structure.... > been > > dropped out of the language by this group)" was mildly sarcastic. > > > > The idea of a group of people using lojban and simply > forgetting/dropping FA > > and/or the default place structure of the gismu is completely absurd. > It > > could happen, but it would take (my guess) centuries of shifting for > that to > > happen. It's so fundamental to a proper understanding of the language > that > > if anyone dropped FA or began forgetting the place structures, I would > argue > > that it was darn-near a completely different language. > > > > I'd put it on par with English switching to a system more like what > they > > have in Turkey (as you describe it). Such a thing would be (at best) > an > > extremely bastardized version of English. Likewise, lojban without FA > would > > be quite a stretch. > > > > On Tue, Apr 5, 2011 at 6:17 AM, Joel T. <[4]joelofara...@gmail.com> > wrote: > > > That was my point exactly. True fluency means completely > internalizing > > > a language so that the words just flow out of your mouth without > > > thinking. You're completely "out of the book" to use a chess > > > expression. And a community of truly fluent people would be > influenced > > > more by each other than any conscious thought given to the official > > > rules of grammar. A true Sapir-Whorf test would demand nothing less. > > > > > The point I'm making about running two systems side-by-side is that > in > > > any community of truly fluent people, either one of them would get > > > phased out, or they would diverge in meaning, usage, connotation > etc. > > > At the very least it would become a way of differentiating between > > > cliques, which is the thin end of the wedge for dialectisation. You > > > just can't have two ways of doing exactly the same thing with only > > > whim to choose between them. It's great in class, but in the field > > > it's not tenable. It's not how language works. > > > > > On Apr 4, 10:04 pm, Luke Bergen <[5]lukeaber...@gmail.com> wrote: > > > > I think his point was that these dialectic splits could result in > two > > > groups > > > > of people not being able to understand one another. > > > > > > If one group of people liked using the place structure so much > that they > > > > just ignored FA what would happen if they saw something like {fi > lo zdani > > > cu > > > > klama fa mi lo zarci} and got completely confused (you know, cuz > > > generations > > > > later FA would have basically been dropped out of the language by > this > > > > group). > > > > > > On Mon, Apr 4, 2011 at 2:35 PM, Michael Turniansky < > > > [6]mturnian...@gmail.com>wrote: > > > > > > > On Sun, Apr 3, 2011 at 8:08 PM, Joel T. > <[7]joelofara...@gmail.com> > > > wrote: > > > > > > >> In any case, surely running two systems side-by-side is asking > for > > > > >> dialectisation (is that a word?), where speakers in one area > get used > > > > >> to one system while speakers in another prefer the other? > > > > > > > It can, and does. But we consider the flexibility to be a plus. > > > That > > > > > way, any person coming from a natural language background of > say, > > > Turkish, > > > > > can from sentences the way that seems most natural to them, > while > > > someone > > > > > coming from an English background can form setnences the most > natural > > > way to > > > > > them. And both will be understood equally well. We had, for > example, > > > a > > > > > while a back, a discussion over which was "better": to use "cu" > often, > > > or to > > > > > totally eschew it in favor of sumti that are competely > terminated so > > > that > > > > > there was no need for it (i.e. "lo gerku cu barda" vs. "lo gerku > ku > > > > > barda"). There are vocal proponents on each side, so it amounts > to a > > > > > dialectical split, but.. so what? > > > > > --gejyspa > > > > > > > -- > > > > > You received this message because you are subscribed to the > Google > > > Groups > > > > > "lojban" group. > > > > > To post to this group, send email to [8]lojban@googlegroups.com. > > > > > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > > > > > [9]lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > > > > > For more options, visit this group at > > > > >[10]http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. > > > > > -- > > > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google > Groups > > > "lojban" group. > > > To post to this group, send email to [11]lojban@googlegroups.com. > > > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > > > [12]lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > > > For more options, visit this group at > > >[13]http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google > Groups "lojban" group. > To post to this group, send email to [14]lojban@googlegroups.com. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > [15]lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > For more options, visit this group at > [16]http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. > > -- > mu'o mi'e .arpis. > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "lojban" group. > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. > > References > > Visible links > 1. mailto:joelofarabia@gmail.com > 2. http://www.tlg.uci.edu/%7Eopoudjis/%0Alojbanbrochure/lessons/less2changeplaces.html > 3. mailto:lukeaber...@gmail.com > 4. mailto:joelofara...@gmail.com > 5. mailto:lukeaber...@gmail.com > 6. mailto:mturnian...@gmail.com > 7. mailto:joelofara...@gmail.com > 8. mailto:lojban@googlegroups.com > 9. mailto:lojban%2Bunsubscribe@googlegroups.com > 10. http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en > 11. mailto:lojban@googlegroups.com > 12. mailto:lojban%2Bunsubscribe@googlegroups.com > 13. http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en > 14. mailto:lojban@googlegroups.com > 15. mailto:lojban%2Bunsubscribe@googlegroups.com > 16. http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en -- .i ma'a lo bradi ku penmi gi'e du -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "lojban" group. 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