From lojban+bncCMHEmaCOBhCWju3sBBoE1NJGxA@googlegroups.com Tue Apr 05 09:45:27 2011 Received: from mail-fx0-f61.google.com ([209.85.161.61]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1Q79Nb-0006PB-CD; Tue, 05 Apr 2011 09:45:27 -0700 Received: by fxm14 with SMTP id 14sf558249fxm.16 for ; Tue, 05 Apr 2011 09:45:17 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version :in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:x-google-group-id:list-post :list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe :content-type; bh=V93JLvIhQqtdVqXSYz+R/6atSzJrwo0ZcpiQ5MiSNxY=; b=7KaekSgnjvD97f3dDSyrdvhQxexrPc4OkUlbcZwGazJcf1Y3UsMKrelPGdU7axxMxI wRO2HaZnCBb1lu8lSrcdze10XT8Ew8YEgts4Czej0qUIPou49/QTz71sPCfQrlRi5ikz 9OG+394yKsSHZkefIF87KvOyBqKi8jNiT/GEo= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date :message-id:subject:from:to:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:x-google-group-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender :list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; b=boNfPKCxlOh/etuICsB0Ev7+FcArIT7HrH1G+gdbH6HVGRpcShh1t6cjK4KRxrIakc b+yQFH2c67nOmOQJAi56FEGhN+3ZoOj9Q5S0AkPGdaGBz2mb9aSugFRJGh5cHMsIS33s 8IDXYZDg4WSvfxkslpyx+Y08xcyQ7UnrBH5xA= Received: by 10.223.70.203 with SMTP id e11mr942379faj.23.1302021910553; Tue, 05 Apr 2011 09:45:10 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.223.32.68 with SMTP id b4ls1774842fad.0.p; Tue, 05 Apr 2011 09:45:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.223.14.137 with SMTP id g9mr1063516faa.19.1302021909654; Tue, 05 Apr 2011 09:45:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.223.14.137 with SMTP id g9mr1063515faa.19.1302021909611; Tue, 05 Apr 2011 09:45:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-bw0-f43.google.com (mail-bw0-f43.google.com [209.85.214.43]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id r28si666152fam.4.2011.04.05.09.45.09 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Tue, 05 Apr 2011 09:45:09 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of eyeonus@gmail.com designates 209.85.214.43 as permitted sender) client-ip=209.85.214.43; Received: by mail-bw0-f43.google.com with SMTP id 14so533249bwz.30 for ; Tue, 05 Apr 2011 09:45:09 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.204.227.193 with SMTP id jb1mr2180473bkb.157.1302021908251; Tue, 05 Apr 2011 09:45:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.204.116.147 with HTTP; Tue, 5 Apr 2011 09:45:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.204.116.147 with HTTP; Tue, 5 Apr 2011 09:45:08 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: <0a74da06-07cf-4b52-a329-ed0ebbae2f5b@u8g2000yqh.googlegroups.com> Date: Tue, 5 Apr 2011 10:45:08 -0600 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban] Re: I love Lojban's approach, but what's the deal with place tags? From: Jonathan Jones To: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Original-Sender: eyeonus@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of eyeonus@gmail.com designates 209.85.214.43 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=eyeonus@gmail.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=485b3970d4ae54c3c304a02e9929 --485b3970d4ae54c3c304a02e9929 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 FA merely marks which place in the defined place structure if being filled by the following sumti. {fa} always marks the x1 of the bridi. You have to know the place structure of the selbri in order to know what relation is bring applied to the sumti following FA. I don't know Turkish, but I believe that language's tags are more like our BAI. to pu benji di'u fo lo mi me la.android. fonxa toi mu'o mi'e.aionys. On Apr 5, 2011 9:36 AM, "Joel T." wrote: OK, fair enough. I hope my comments didn't seem overly dogmatic. If indeed as you say all these elements are indispensable then I am wrong, and as I said in my original post, I couldn't be happier! In that case it would be like me saying that English is flawed because you can remove all the words of French origin and you'd still have a complete language. The premise is correct, but the inertia of current usage means that this will never happen. I just never thought that such variety could be present in the grammar of a language and not just the vocabulary. I suppose I should have really started by giving an example. In Chapter 2 of Lojban for Beginners (http://www.tlg.uci.edu/~opoudjis/ lojbanbrochure/lessons/less2changeplaces.html), if I have understood correctly it basically tells me that if I feel like it I can say (and therefore have to be able to understand): la suzyn. klama la paris. la berlin. zo'e le karce (English structure) and la suzyn. fu le karce fi la berlin. fe la paris. klama (Turkish structure) You can imagine how hard it is for native English speakers to get used to Turkish sentence structure, in fact my parents never quite did. At least in Turkish when you change the structure of a sentence you do it for a reason, like emphasis. But Lojban expects me to be able to adapt mid-paragraph for somebody who uses any and all possible sentence structures on a whim! My brain would flip! Everything I know about language tells me that people get used to expressing themselves according to specific structures. Which is why I arrived at the conclusion that any population of fluent Lojban speakers would very quickly get used to ordering certain sentences in certain ways instead of constantly mixing up their grammar, which requires conscious thought. Again, please do correct me if I'm wrong, and I get the feeling I probably am. I would like to thank everybody who has replied to my original post for taking it in the spirit intended. You have all encouraged me to take a closer look at Lojban! On Apr 5, 5:22 pm, Luke Bergen wrote: > Yeah Joel, I think what you're miss... > On Tue, Apr 5, 2011 at 6:17 AM, Joel T. wrote: > > That was my point exac... -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. --485b3970d4ae54c3c304a02e9929 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

FA merely marks which place in the defined place structure if being fill= ed by the following sumti. {fa} always marks the x1 of the bridi. You have = to know the place structure of the selbri in order to know what relation is= bring applied to the sumti following FA. I don't know Turkish, but I b= elieve that language's tags are more like our BAI.

to pu benji di'u fo lo mi me la.android. fonxa toi
mu'o mi'e.aionys.

On Apr 5, 2011 9:36 AM, "Joel T." &l= t;joelofarabia@gmail.com> = wrote:

OK, fair enough. I hope my comments didn't seem overly do= gmatic. If
indeed as you say all these elements are indispensable then I am
wrong, and as I said in my original post, I couldn't be happier!

In that case it would be like me saying that English is flawed because
you can remove all the words of French origin and you'd still have a complete language. The premise is correct, but the inertia of current
usage means that this will never happen. I just never thought that
such variety could be present in the grammar of a language and not
just the vocabulary.

I suppose I should have really started by giving an example. In
Chapter 2 of Lojban for Beginners (http://www= .tlg.uci.edu/~opoudjis/
lojbanbrochure/lessons/less2changeplaces.html), if I have understood correctly it basically tells me that if I feel like it I can say (and
therefore have to be able to understand):

la suzyn. klama la paris. la berlin. zo'e le karce (English structure)<= br>
and

la suzyn. fu le karce fi la berlin. fe la paris. klama (Turkish
structure)

You can imagine how hard it is for native English speakers to get used
to Turkish sentence structure, in fact my parents never quite did. At
least in Turkish when you change the structure of a sentence you do it
for a reason, like emphasis. But Lojban expects me to be able to adapt
mid-paragraph for somebody who uses any and all possible sentence
structures on a whim! My brain would flip!

Everything I know about language tells me that people get used to
expressing themselves according to specific structures. Which is why I
arrived at the conclusion that any population of fluent Lojban
speakers would very quickly get used to ordering certain sentences in
certain ways instead of constantly mixing up their grammar, which
requires conscious thought.

Again, please do correct me if I'm wrong, and I get the feeling I
probably am. I would like to thank everybody who has replied to my
original post for taking it in the spirit intended. You have all
encouraged me to take a closer look at Lojban!


On Apr 5, 5:22=A0pm, Luke Bergen <lukeaber...@gmail.com> wrote:
&= gt; Yeah Joel, I think what you're miss...

> On Tue, Apr 5, 2011 at 6:17 AM, Joel T. <joelofara...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > That was my point exac...

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