From lojban+bncCOjSjrXVGBDFqO3sBBoEJOItxw@googlegroups.com Tue Apr 05 10:41:44 2011 Received: from mail-yi0-f61.google.com ([209.85.218.61]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1Q7AG1-0005jc-M6; Tue, 05 Apr 2011 10:41:44 -0700 Received: by yie19 with SMTP id 19sf1239739yie.16 for ; Tue, 05 Apr 2011 10:41:31 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version :in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:x-google-group-id:list-post :list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe :content-type; bh=0R+A0T1i5VxL+tXDDN/ik6hBS39Or/OObU2kKT0YL6c=; b=FZbKRSXZNSGA9pynirrhU2ycjqCEfFfaNu10VrgIvhNiKDp0Jth1orSOKE3imilCXW f0qzyV1oftpaGBcV4E4qle2YoYjoo+k5DSzVVV/P4aOiluM9XkyPY/gGbxcr3GbNRFX2 d/0J+WdQHBGAW56P78L2plxcoSn/IWZk2XzRg= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from :date:message-id:subject:to:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:x-google-group-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender :list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; b=efY547FIDg67O4RpLxT2kKYhQPZlWpOESj9DU9CziJUhQdw4a2O9o7mccoe2krf7ii nDwOq/0SY5s4cJsSUyHrSMOLtV4b1pDMTCNLfENve0LTXbB4Nq0NDaCvRr85EBiyOCzM dAmC/yX3gJ63lOmSTd2yl4rwABpkusBeu4GZo= Received: by 10.150.173.6 with SMTP id v6mr191206ybe.60.1302025285185; Tue, 05 Apr 2011 10:41:25 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.231.32.138 with SMTP id c10ls25011ibd.2.p; Tue, 05 Apr 2011 10:41:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.231.23.68 with SMTP id q4mr2783937ibb.10.1302025284371; Tue, 05 Apr 2011 10:41:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.231.23.68 with SMTP id q4mr2783936ibb.10.1302025284324; Tue, 05 Apr 2011 10:41:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-iw0-f179.google.com (mail-iw0-f179.google.com [209.85.214.179]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id b26si1260136ibq.0.2011.04.05.10.41.24 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Tue, 05 Apr 2011 10:41:24 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of lukeabergen@gmail.com designates 209.85.214.179 as permitted sender) client-ip=209.85.214.179; Received: by mail-iw0-f179.google.com with SMTP id 10so583538iwc.10 for ; Tue, 05 Apr 2011 10:41:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.231.33.205 with SMTP id i13mr8870853ibd.54.1302025284112; Tue, 05 Apr 2011 10:41:24 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.231.37.10 with HTTP; Tue, 5 Apr 2011 10:41:04 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: <0a74da06-07cf-4b52-a329-ed0ebbae2f5b@u8g2000yqh.googlegroups.com> From: Luke Bergen Date: Tue, 5 Apr 2011 13:41:04 -0400 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban] Re: I love Lojban's approach, but what's the deal with place tags? To: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Original-Sender: lukeabergen@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of lukeabergen@gmail.com designates 209.85.214.179 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=lukeabergen@gmail.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=00221534c94f8c549904a02f62e2 --00221534c94f8c549904a02f62e2 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 That makes more sense. I would think that communication would be very difficult indeed if Turkish did {mi do lo zdani la mil.rod lo karce cu klama} (in english: I to you from the house along mill road in the car do come) (only english adds even more information than the lojban because of the necessary "to", "from", "along", etc...). Using BAI like tags would at least make the previous sentence a bit easier to keep up with. Joel, jumping around like that with FA (like in the L4B example) is certainly not the norm. It's just an existing technique that by virtue of other constructs in the language, will always be possible to do. It has a similar flavor to me as an english statement like "I to you do come" or "I do thee wed". It sounds kind of funny and some people might have some trouble grasping what's being said... but it's still valid english and most people probably will get it... it just kind of sounds funny. For purposes of emphasis, we usually use SE to swap places. On Tue, Apr 5, 2011 at 12:45 PM, Jonathan Jones wrote: > FA merely marks which place in the defined place structure if being filled > by the following sumti. {fa} always marks the x1 of the bridi. You have to > know the place structure of the selbri in order to know what relation is > bring applied to the sumti following FA. I don't know Turkish, but I believe > that language's tags are more like our BAI. > > to pu benji di'u fo lo mi me la.android. fonxa toi > mu'o mi'e.aionys. > > On Apr 5, 2011 9:36 AM, "Joel T." wrote: > > OK, fair enough. I hope my comments didn't seem overly dogmatic. If > indeed as you say all these elements are indispensable then I am > wrong, and as I said in my original post, I couldn't be happier! > > In that case it would be like me saying that English is flawed because > you can remove all the words of French origin and you'd still have a > complete language. The premise is correct, but the inertia of current > usage means that this will never happen. I just never thought that > such variety could be present in the grammar of a language and not > just the vocabulary. > > I suppose I should have really started by giving an example. In > Chapter 2 of Lojban for Beginners (http://www.tlg.uci.edu/~opoudjis/ > lojbanbrochure/lessons/less2changeplaces.html), > if I have understood > correctly it basically tells me that if I feel like it I can say (and > therefore have to be able to understand): > > la suzyn. klama la paris. la berlin. zo'e le karce (English structure) > > and > > la suzyn. fu le karce fi la berlin. fe la paris. klama (Turkish > structure) > > You can imagine how hard it is for native English speakers to get used > to Turkish sentence structure, in fact my parents never quite did. At > least in Turkish when you change the structure of a sentence you do it > for a reason, like emphasis. But Lojban expects me to be able to adapt > mid-paragraph for somebody who uses any and all possible sentence > structures on a whim! My brain would flip! > > Everything I know about language tells me that people get used to > expressing themselves according to specific structures. Which is why I > arrived at the conclusion that any population of fluent Lojban > speakers would very quickly get used to ordering certain sentences in > certain ways instead of constantly mixing up their grammar, which > requires conscious thought. > > Again, please do correct me if I'm wrong, and I get the feeling I > probably am. I would like to thank everybody who has replied to my > original post for taking it in the spirit intended. You have all > encouraged me to take a closer look at Lojban! > > > On Apr 5, 5:22 pm, Luke Bergen wrote: > > Yeah Joel, I think what you're miss... > > > On Tue, Apr 5, 2011 at 6:17 AM, Joel T. wrote: > > > That was my point exac... > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "lojban" group. > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. --00221534c94f8c549904a02f62e2 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable That makes more sense. =A0I would think that communication would be very di= fficult indeed if Turkish did {mi do lo zdani la mil.rod lo karce cu klama}= =A0(in english: I to you from the house along mill road in the car do come= ) (only english adds even more information than the lojban because of the= =A0necessary=A0"to", "from", "along", etc...)= . =A0Using BAI like tags would at least make the previous sentence a bit ea= sier to keep up with.

Joel, jumping around like that with FA (like in the L4B example) is cer= tainly not the norm. =A0It's just an existing technique that by virtue = of other constructs in the language, will always be possible to do. =A0It h= as a similar flavor to me as an english statement like "I to you do co= me" or "I do thee wed". =A0It sounds kind of funny and some = people might have some trouble grasping what's being said... but it'= ;s still valid english and most people probably will get it... it just kind= of sounds funny.

For purposes of emphasis, we usually use SE to swap places.<= br>
On Tue, Apr 5, 2011 at 12:45 PM, Jonathan= Jones <eyeonus@g= mail.com> wrote:

FA merely marks which place in the defin= ed place structure if being filled by the following sumti. {fa} always mark= s the x1 of the bridi. You have to know the place structure of the selbri i= n order to know what relation is bring applied to the sumti following FA. I= don't know Turkish, but I believe that language's tags are more li= ke our BAI.

to pu benji di'u fo lo mi me la.android. fonxa toi
mu'o mi'e.aionys.

On Apr 5= , 2011 9:36 AM, "Joel T." <joelofarabia@gmail.com> wrote:

OK, f= air enough. I hope my comments didn't seem overly dogmatic. If
indeed as you say all these elements are indispensable then I am
wrong, and as I said in my original post, I couldn't be happier!

In that case it would be like me saying that English is flawed because
you can remove all the words of French origin and you'd still have a complete language. The premise is correct, but the inertia of current
usage means that this will never happen. I just never thought that
such variety could be present in the grammar of a language and not
just the vocabulary.

I suppose I should have really started by giving an example. In
Chapter 2 of Lojban for Beginners (http:/= /www.tlg.uci.edu/~opoudjis/
lojbanbrochure/lessons/less2changeplaces.html), if I have understood correctly it basically tells me that if I feel like it I can say (and
therefore have to be able to understand):

la suzyn. klama la paris. la berlin. zo'e le karce (English structure)<= br>
and

la suzyn. fu le karce fi la berlin. fe la paris. klama (Turkish
structure)

You can imagine how hard it is for native English speakers to get used
to Turkish sentence structure, in fact my parents never quite did. At
least in Turkish when you change the structure of a sentence you do it
for a reason, like emphasis. But Lojban expects me to be able to adapt
mid-paragraph for somebody who uses any and all possible sentence
structures on a whim! My brain would flip!

Everything I know about language tells me that people get used to
expressing themselves according to specific structures. Which is why I
arrived at the conclusion that any population of fluent Lojban
speakers would very quickly get used to ordering certain sentences in
certain ways instead of constantly mixing up their grammar, which
requires conscious thought.

Again, please do correct me if I'm wrong, and I get the feeling I
probably am. I would like to thank everybody who has replied to my
original post for taking it in the spirit intended. You have all
encouraged me to take a closer look at Lojban!


On Apr = 5, 5:22=A0pm, Luke Bergen <lukeaber...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Yeah Joel, I think what you= 're miss...

> On Tue, Apr 5, 2011 at 6:17 AM, Joel= T. <joelofa= ra...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > That was my point exac...

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