From lojban+bncCOib25n_BhD8sO3sBBoEMMdt4g@googlegroups.com Tue Apr 05 10:59:52 2011 Received: from mail-gx0-f189.google.com ([209.85.161.189]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1Q7AXT-0007Cc-IZ; Tue, 05 Apr 2011 10:59:51 -0700 Received: by gxk3 with SMTP id 3sf1266020gxk.16 for ; Tue, 05 Apr 2011 10:59:30 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version :in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to:cc :x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:x-google-group-id:list-post :list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe :content-type; bh=yFIcwQtHzkrBMOJgrH8rROmFb3I0/SVAkkmKIVSwOlw=; b=GUwRIqQr8Yo8wYD+a5cYOD4D/8LTdohOPB1ZVKI9Ud5QCwuJCQvY35NZazhmWOrufX 9ok4DCYQvYuLtUFPf+MEaCfm4vSbWFkJetX6rlRdFWRX7zEHRNVX90TTfGduKWzqCUZd xQ3QGYx8sc4Ye51SjH/BlgghWNCl2ad4ucJNg= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date :message-id:subject:from:to:cc:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:x-google-group-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender :list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; b=sDOOBuuJXPUmePYYGiWuvLlS55aPUb6oofmHQlt1N7kWo50tFeVEy3sGWMuH2cp8Mh iYxvS4kRuTfnyxFIDBd3vkn7nmZGztISQMEFpJAqan5sfIeqpFwyiG7IaVExNnfLtaDn t1MyIf/OKChNOX4+DpMU55TV5SaR54wWJm9Mc= Received: by 10.150.242.2 with SMTP id p2mr211649ybh.12.1302026364122; Tue, 05 Apr 2011 10:59:24 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.231.1.79 with SMTP id 15ls47517ibe.0.p; Tue, 05 Apr 2011 10:59:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.42.241.129 with SMTP id le1mr924844icb.100.1302026363076; Tue, 05 Apr 2011 10:59:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.42.241.129 with SMTP id le1mr924843icb.100.1302026363014; Tue, 05 Apr 2011 10:59:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-iy0-f170.google.com (mail-iy0-f170.google.com [209.85.210.170]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id wr7si1085019icb.6.2011.04.05.10.59.21 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Tue, 05 Apr 2011 10:59:22 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of rpglover64@gmail.com designates 209.85.210.170 as permitted sender) client-ip=209.85.210.170; Received: by mail-iy0-f170.google.com with SMTP id 12so1322532iyb.1 for ; Tue, 05 Apr 2011 10:59:21 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.43.55.84 with SMTP id vx20mr7616859icb.49.1302026361573; Tue, 05 Apr 2011 10:59:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.42.175.201 with HTTP; Tue, 5 Apr 2011 10:59:21 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <20110405163732.GA11417@alice.local> References: <0a74da06-07cf-4b52-a329-ed0ebbae2f5b@u8g2000yqh.googlegroups.com> <20110405163732.GA11417@alice.local> Date: Tue, 5 Apr 2011 13:59:21 -0400 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban] Re: I love Lojban's approach, but what's the deal with place tags? From: Alex Rozenshteyn To: lojban@googlegroups.com Cc: ".alyn.post." X-Original-Sender: rpglover64@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of rpglover64@gmail.com designates 209.85.210.170 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=rpglover64@gmail.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=bcaec51b1e23c511e004a02fa2b9 --bcaec51b1e23c511e004a02fa2b9 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 doi .alan.post. ki'a ru'e .i na jimpe fi zo ko joi zo xu gi'e na jimpe fi lo mukti do'e zo ke'a ni'o mi na pu cusku lo du'u va'o ro zo'e na pilno lo selma'o zo fa .i ku'i cusku lo du'u va'o lo na'e sarcu ku na pilno (I'm not quite sure what you meant by using "ko" and "xu" together, and I'm not sure why you used "ke'a" I didn't say never to use FA; I said that they shouldn't be used when not necessary.) On Tue, Apr 5, 2011 at 12:37 PM, .alyn.post. wrote: > doi .arpis. > > .i ko xu ba cusku ke'a goi lu .i mi djica lo za'i ponse fa do lo rokci li'u > poi na pilno zo fa .i mi na jimpe lo cusku be ke'a > > .i mu'o mi'e .alyn. > > On Tue, Apr 05, 2011 at 12:01:05PM -0400, .arpis. wrote: > > I'm biased, but I find the English structure to be more understandable > and > > natural, and not only because I speak English. > > > > The selbri comes early in the sentence, allowing the listener to start > > understanding the relationships between the sumti before the sentence > is > > finished, and FA tags, unlike case endings, have no intrinsic meaning > > apart from the selbri. > > > > Also, as I understand it, the FA tags are meant to provide the > facility to > > reorder sentences when it is convenient, e.g. {mi klama fu lo karce}, > not > > to allow arbitrary re-orderings; that's what BAI can be for. A > somewhat > > contrived example: {kla la .suzyn. xekla lo karce tekla la .berlin. > sekla > > la .paris. co'e} > > > > On Tue, Apr 5, 2011 at 11:36 AM, Joel T. <[1]joelofarabia@gmail.com> > > wrote: > > > > OK, fair enough. I hope my comments didn't seem overly dogmatic. If > > indeed as you say all these elements are indispensable then I am > > wrong, and as I said in my original post, I couldn't be happier! > > > > In that case it would be like me saying that English is flawed > because > > you can remove all the words of French origin and you'd still have a > > complete language. The premise is correct, but the inertia of > current > > usage means that this will never happen. I just never thought that > > such variety could be present in the grammar of a language and not > > just the vocabulary. > > > > I suppose I should have really started by giving an example. In > > Chapter 2 of Lojban for Beginners ([2] > http://www.tlg.uci.edu/~opoudjis/ > > lojbanbrochure/lessons/less2changeplaces.html), if I have understood > > correctly it basically tells me that if I feel like it I can say > (and > > therefore have to be able to understand): > > > > la suzyn. klama la paris. la berlin. zo'e le karce (English > structure) > > > > and > > > > la suzyn. fu le karce fi la berlin. fe la paris. klama (Turkish > > structure) > > > > You can imagine how hard it is for native English speakers to get > used > > to Turkish sentence structure, in fact my parents never quite did. > At > > least in Turkish when you change the structure of a sentence you do > it > > for a reason, like emphasis. But Lojban expects me to be able to > adapt > > mid-paragraph for somebody who uses any and all possible sentence > > structures on a whim! My brain would flip! > > > > Everything I know about language tells me that people get used to > > expressing themselves according to specific structures. Which is why > I > > arrived at the conclusion that any population of fluent Lojban > > speakers would very quickly get used to ordering certain sentences > in > > certain ways instead of constantly mixing up their grammar, which > > requires conscious thought. > > > > Again, please do correct me if I'm wrong, and I get the feeling I > > probably am. I would like to thank everybody who has replied to my > > original post for taking it in the spirit intended. You have all > > encouraged me to take a closer look at Lojban! > > On Apr 5, 5:22 pm, Luke Bergen <[3]lukeaber...@gmail.com> wrote: > > > Yeah Joel, I think what you're missing at this early stage in your > > learning > > > is that both FA *and* knowing the place structures are extremely > > important > > > if you want to be fluent. > > > > > > I understand your concerns. You agreed that I was representing > your > > > argument accurately. What you may have misunderstood was that my > last > > > paragraph about "if one group of people liked the place > structure.... > > been > > > dropped out of the language by this group)" was mildly sarcastic. > > > > > > The idea of a group of people using lojban and simply > > forgetting/dropping FA > > > and/or the default place structure of the gismu is completely > absurd. > > It > > > could happen, but it would take (my guess) centuries of shifting > for > > that to > > > happen. It's so fundamental to a proper understanding of the > language > > that > > > if anyone dropped FA or began forgetting the place structures, I > would > > argue > > > that it was darn-near a completely different language. > > > > > > I'd put it on par with English switching to a system more like > what > > they > > > have in Turkey (as you describe it). Such a thing would be (at > best) > > an > > > extremely bastardized version of English. Likewise, lojban without > FA > > would > > > be quite a stretch. > > > > > > On Tue, Apr 5, 2011 at 6:17 AM, Joel T. <[4] > joelofara...@gmail.com> > > wrote: > > > > That was my point exactly. True fluency means completely > > internalizing > > > > a language so that the words just flow out of your mouth without > > > > thinking. You're completely "out of the book" to use a chess > > > > expression. And a community of truly fluent people would be > > influenced > > > > more by each other than any conscious thought given to the > official > > > > rules of grammar. A true Sapir-Whorf test would demand nothing > less. > > > > > > > The point I'm making about running two systems side-by-side is > that > > in > > > > any community of truly fluent people, either one of them would > get > > > > phased out, or they would diverge in meaning, usage, connotation > > etc. > > > > At the very least it would become a way of differentiating > between > > > > cliques, which is the thin end of the wedge for dialectisation. > You > > > > just can't have two ways of doing exactly the same thing with > only > > > > whim to choose between them. It's great in class, but in the > field > > > > it's not tenable. It's not how language works. > > > > > > > On Apr 4, 10:04 pm, Luke Bergen <[5]lukeaber...@gmail.com> > wrote: > > > > > I think his point was that these dialectic splits could result > in > > two > > > > groups > > > > > of people not being able to understand one another. > > > > > > > > If one group of people liked using the place structure so much > > that they > > > > > just ignored FA what would happen if they saw something like > {fi > > lo zdani > > > > cu > > > > > klama fa mi lo zarci} and got completely confused (you know, > cuz > > > > generations > > > > > later FA would have basically been dropped out of the language > by > > this > > > > > group). > > > > > > > > On Mon, Apr 4, 2011 at 2:35 PM, Michael Turniansky < > > > > [6]mturnian...@gmail.com>wrote: > > > > > > > > > On Sun, Apr 3, 2011 at 8:08 PM, Joel T. > > <[7]joelofara...@gmail.com> > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > >> In any case, surely running two systems side-by-side is > asking > > for > > > > > >> dialectisation (is that a word?), where speakers in one > area > > get used > > > > > >> to one system while speakers in another prefer the other? > > > > > > > > > It can, and does. But we consider the flexibility to be a > plus. > > > > That > > > > > > way, any person coming from a natural language background of > > say, > > > > Turkish, > > > > > > can from sentences the way that seems most natural to them, > > while > > > > someone > > > > > > coming from an English background can form setnences the > most > > natural > > > > way to > > > > > > them. And both will be understood equally well. We had, for > > example, > > > > a > > > > > > while a back, a discussion over which was "better": to use > "cu" > > often, > > > > or to > > > > > > totally eschew it in favor of sumti that are competely > > terminated so > > > > that > > > > > > there was no need for it (i.e. "lo gerku cu barda" vs. "lo > gerku > > ku > > > > > > barda"). There are vocal proponents on each side, so it > amounts > > to a > > > > > > dialectical split, but.. so what? > > > > > > --gejyspa > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > > > You received this message because you are subscribed to the > > Google > > > > Groups > > > > > > "lojban" group. > > > > > > To post to this group, send email to [8] > lojban@googlegroups.com. > > > > > > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > > > > > > [9]lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > > > > > > For more options, visit this group at > > > > > >[10]http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. > > > > > > > -- > > > > You received this message because you are subscribed to the > Google > > Groups > > > > "lojban" group. > > > > To post to this group, send email to [11] > lojban@googlegroups.com. > > > > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > > > > [12]lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > > > > For more options, visit this group at > > > >[13]http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. > > > > -- > > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google > > Groups "lojban" group. > > To post to this group, send email to [14]lojban@googlegroups.com. > > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > > [15]lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > > For more options, visit this group at > > [16]http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. > > > > -- > > mu'o mi'e .arpis. > > > > -- > > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google > Groups > > "lojban" group. > > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > > lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > > For more options, visit this group at > > http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. > > > > References > > > > Visible links > > 1. mailto:joelofarabia@gmail.com > > 2. > http://www.tlg.uci.edu/%7Eopoudjis/%0Alojbanbrochure/lessons/less2changeplaces.html > > 3. mailto:lukeaber...@gmail.com > > 4. mailto:joelofara...@gmail.com > > 5. mailto:lukeaber...@gmail.com > > 6. mailto:mturnian...@gmail.com > > 7. mailto:joelofara...@gmail.com > > 8. mailto:lojban@googlegroups.com > > 9. mailto:lojban%2Bunsubscribe@googlegroups.com > > 10. http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en > > 11. mailto:lojban@googlegroups.com > > 12. mailto:lojban%2Bunsubscribe@googlegroups.com > > 13. http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en > > 14. mailto:lojban@googlegroups.com > > 15. mailto:lojban%2Bunsubscribe@googlegroups.com > > 16. http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en > > -- > .i ma'a lo bradi ku penmi gi'e du > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "lojban" group. > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. > > -- Alex R -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. --bcaec51b1e23c511e004a02fa2b9 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable doi .alan.post.

ki'a ru'e .i na jimpe fi zo ko joi zo xu gi'e na jimpe fi lo mu= kti do'e zo ke'a

ni'o
mi na pu cusku lo du'u va'o ro zo'e na pilno lo selma'o zo = fa .i ku'i cusku lo du'u va'o lo na'e sarcu ku na pilno
=
(I'm not quite sure what you meant by using "ko" and &quo= t;xu" together, and I'm not sure why you used "ke'a"=

I didn't say never to use FA; I said that they shouldn't be use= d when not necessary.)


On Tue, Apr 5,= 2011 at 12:37 PM, .alyn.post. <alyn.post@lodockikumazvati.or= g> wrote:
doi .arpis.

.i ko xu ba cusku ke'a goi lu .i mi djica lo za'i ponse fa do lo ro= kci li'u
poi na pilno zo fa .i mi na jimpe lo cusku be ke'a

.i mu'o mi'e .alyn.

On Tue, Apr 05, 2011 at 12:01:05PM -0400, .arpis. wrote:
> =A0 =A0I'm biased, but I find the English structure to be more und= erstandable and
> =A0 =A0natural, and not only because I speak English.
>
> =A0 =A0The selbri comes early in the sentence, allowing the listener t= o start
> =A0 =A0understanding the relationships between the sumti before the se= ntence is
> =A0 =A0finished, and FA tags, unlike case endings, have no intrinsic m= eaning
> =A0 =A0apart from the selbri.
>
> =A0 =A0Also, as I understand it, the FA tags are meant to provide the = facility to
> =A0 =A0reorder sentences when it is convenient, e.g. {mi klama fu lo k= arce}, not
> =A0 =A0to allow arbitrary re-orderings; that's what BAI can be for= . A somewhat
> =A0 =A0contrived example: {kla la .suzyn. xekla lo karce tekla la .ber= lin. sekla
> =A0 =A0la .paris. co'e}
>
> =A0 =A0On Tue, Apr 5, 2011 at 11:36 AM, Joel T. <[1]joelofarabia@gmail.com= >
> =A0 =A0wrote:
>
> =A0 =A0 =A0OK, fair enough. I hope my comments didn't seem overly = dogmatic. If
> =A0 =A0 =A0indeed as you say all these elements are indispensable then= I am
> =A0 =A0 =A0wrong, and as I said in my original post, I couldn't be= happier!
>
> =A0 =A0 =A0In that case it would be like me saying that English is fla= wed because
> =A0 =A0 =A0you can remove all the words of French origin and you'd= still have a
> =A0 =A0 =A0complete language. The premise is correct, but the inertia = of current
> =A0 =A0 =A0usage means that this will never happen. I just never thoug= ht that
> =A0 =A0 =A0such variety could be present in the grammar of a language = and not
> =A0 =A0 =A0just the vocabulary.
>
> =A0 =A0 =A0I suppose I should have really started by giving an example= . In
> =A0 =A0 =A0Chapter 2 of Lojban for Beginners ([2]http://www.tlg.uci.edu/~= opoudjis/
> =A0 =A0 =A0lojbanbrochure/lessons/less2changeplaces.html), if I h= ave understood
> =A0 =A0 =A0correctly it basically tells me that if I feel like it I ca= n say (and
> =A0 =A0 =A0therefore have to be able to understand):
>
> =A0 =A0 =A0la suzyn. klama la paris. la berlin. zo'e le karce (Eng= lish structure)
>
> =A0 =A0 =A0and
>
> =A0 =A0 =A0la suzyn. fu le karce fi la berlin. fe la paris. klama (Tur= kish
> =A0 =A0 =A0structure)
>
> =A0 =A0 =A0You can imagine how hard it is for native English speakers = to get used
> =A0 =A0 =A0to Turkish sentence structure, in fact my parents never qui= te did. At
> =A0 =A0 =A0least in Turkish when you change the structure of a sentenc= e you do it
> =A0 =A0 =A0for a reason, like emphasis. But Lojban expects me to be ab= le to adapt
> =A0 =A0 =A0mid-paragraph for somebody who uses any and all possible se= ntence
> =A0 =A0 =A0structures on a whim! My brain would flip!
>
> =A0 =A0 =A0Everything I know about language tells me that people get u= sed to
> =A0 =A0 =A0expressing themselves according to specific structures. Whi= ch is why I
> =A0 =A0 =A0arrived at the conclusion that any population of fluent Loj= ban
> =A0 =A0 =A0speakers would very quickly get used to ordering certain se= ntences in
> =A0 =A0 =A0certain ways instead of constantly mixing up their grammar,= which
> =A0 =A0 =A0requires conscious thought.
>
> =A0 =A0 =A0Again, please do correct me if I'm wrong, and I get the= feeling I
> =A0 =A0 =A0probably am. I would like to thank everybody who has replie= d to my
> =A0 =A0 =A0original post for taking it in the spirit intended. You hav= e all
> =A0 =A0 =A0encouraged me to take a closer look at Lojban!
> =A0 =A0 =A0On Apr 5, 5:22 pm, Luke Bergen &= lt;[3]lukeaber..= .@gmail.com> wrote:
> =A0 =A0 =A0> Yeah Joel, I think what you're missing at this ear= ly stage in your
> =A0 =A0 =A0learning
> =A0 =A0 =A0> is that both FA *and* knowing the place structures are= extremely
> =A0 =A0 =A0important
> =A0 =A0 =A0> if you want to be fluent.
> =A0 =A0 =A0>
> =A0 =A0 =A0> I understand your concerns. You agreed that I was repr= esenting your
> =A0 =A0 =A0> argument accurately. What you may have misunderstood w= as that my last
> =A0 =A0 =A0> paragraph about "if one group of people liked the= place structure....
> =A0 =A0 =A0been
> =A0 =A0 =A0> dropped out of the language by this group)" was m= ildly sarcastic.
> =A0 =A0 =A0>
> =A0 =A0 =A0> The idea of a group of people using lojban and simply<= br> > =A0 =A0 =A0forgetting/dropping FA
> =A0 =A0 =A0> and/or the default place structure of the gismu is com= pletely absurd.
> =A0 =A0 =A0It
> =A0 =A0 =A0> could happen, but it would take (my guess) centuries o= f shifting for
> =A0 =A0 =A0that to
> =A0 =A0 =A0> happen. It's so fundamental to a proper understand= ing of the language
> =A0 =A0 =A0that
> =A0 =A0 =A0> if anyone dropped FA or began forgetting the place str= uctures, I would
> =A0 =A0 =A0argue
> =A0 =A0 =A0> that it was darn-near a completely different language.=
> =A0 =A0 =A0>
> =A0 =A0 =A0> I'd put it on par with English switching to a syst= em more like what
> =A0 =A0 =A0they
> =A0 =A0 =A0> have in Turkey (as you describe it). Such a thing woul= d be (at best)
> =A0 =A0 =A0an
> =A0 =A0 =A0> extremely bastardized version of English. Likewise, lo= jban without FA
> =A0 =A0 =A0would
> =A0 =A0 =A0> be quite a stretch.
> =A0 =A0 =A0>
> =A0 =A0 =A0> On Tue, Apr 5, 2011 at 6:17 AM, Joel T. &l= t;[4]joelofara.= ..@gmail.com>
> =A0 =A0 =A0wrote:
> =A0 =A0 =A0> > That was my point exactly. True fluency means com= pletely
> =A0 =A0 =A0internalizing
> =A0 =A0 =A0> > a language so that the words just flow out of you= r mouth without
> =A0 =A0 =A0> > thinking. You're completely "out of the = book" to use a chess
> =A0 =A0 =A0> > expression. And a community of truly fluent peopl= e would be
> =A0 =A0 =A0influenced
> =A0 =A0 =A0> > more by each other than any conscious thought giv= en to the official
> =A0 =A0 =A0> > rules of grammar. A true Sapir-Whorf test would d= emand nothing less.
> =A0 =A0 =A0>
> =A0 =A0 =A0> > The point I'm making about running two system= s side-by-side is that
> =A0 =A0 =A0in
> =A0 =A0 =A0> > any community of truly fluent people, either one = of them would get
> =A0 =A0 =A0> > phased out, or they would diverge in meaning, usa= ge, connotation
> =A0 =A0 =A0etc.
> =A0 =A0 =A0> > At the very least it would become a way of differ= entiating between
> =A0 =A0 =A0> > cliques, which is the thin end of the wedge for d= ialectisation. You
> =A0 =A0 =A0> > just can't have two ways of doing exactly the= same thing with only
> =A0 =A0 =A0> > whim to choose between them. It's great in cl= ass, but in the field
> =A0 =A0 =A0> > it's not tenable. It's not how language w= orks.
> =A0 =A0 =A0>
> =A0 =A0 =A0> > On Apr 4, 10:04 pm, Luke Bergen <[5= ]lukeaber...@gma= il.com> wrote:
> =A0 =A0 =A0> > > I think his point was that these dialectic s= plits could result in
> =A0 =A0 =A0two
> =A0 =A0 =A0> > groups
> =A0 =A0 =A0> > > of people not being able to understand one a= nother.
> =A0 =A0 =A0>
> =A0 =A0 =A0> > > If one group of people liked using the place= structure so much
> =A0 =A0 =A0that they
> =A0 =A0 =A0> > > just ignored FA what would happen if they sa= w something like {fi
> =A0 =A0 =A0lo zdani
> =A0 =A0 =A0> > cu
> =A0 =A0 =A0> > > klama fa mi lo zarci} and got completely con= fused (you know, cuz
> =A0 =A0 =A0> > generations
> =A0 =A0 =A0> > > later FA would have basically been dropped o= ut of the language by
> =A0 =A0 =A0this
> =A0 =A0 =A0> > > group).
> =A0 =A0 =A0>
> =A0 =A0 =A0> > > On Mon, Apr 4, 2011 at 2:35 PM, Michael Turn= iansky <
> =A0 =A0 =A0> > [6]mturnian...@gmail.com>wrote:
> =A0 =A0 =A0>
> =A0 =A0 =A0> > > > On Sun, Apr 3, 2011 at 8:08 PM, Joel T.=
> =A0 =A0 =A0<[7]joelofara...@gmail.com>
> =A0 =A0 =A0> > wrote:
> =A0 =A0 =A0>
> =A0 =A0 =A0> > > >> In any case, surely running two sys= tems side-by-side is asking
> =A0 =A0 =A0for
> =A0 =A0 =A0> > > >> dialectisation (is that a word?), w= here speakers in one area
> =A0 =A0 =A0get used
> =A0 =A0 =A0> > > >> to one system while speakers in ano= ther prefer the other?
> =A0 =A0 =A0>
> =A0 =A0 =A0> > > > It can, and does. But we consider the f= lexibility to be a plus.
> =A0 =A0 =A0> > That
> =A0 =A0 =A0> > > > way, any person coming from a natural l= anguage background of
> =A0 =A0 =A0say,
> =A0 =A0 =A0> > Turkish,
> =A0 =A0 =A0> > > > can from sentences the way that seems m= ost natural to them,
> =A0 =A0 =A0while
> =A0 =A0 =A0> > someone
> =A0 =A0 =A0> > > > coming from an English background can f= orm setnences the most
> =A0 =A0 =A0natural
> =A0 =A0 =A0> > way to
> =A0 =A0 =A0> > > > them. And both will be understood equal= ly well. We had, for
> =A0 =A0 =A0example,
> =A0 =A0 =A0> > a
> =A0 =A0 =A0> > > > while a back, a discussion over which w= as "better": to use "cu"
> =A0 =A0 =A0often,
> =A0 =A0 =A0> > or to
> =A0 =A0 =A0> > > > totally eschew it in favor of sumti tha= t are competely
> =A0 =A0 =A0terminated so
> =A0 =A0 =A0> > that
> =A0 =A0 =A0> > > > there was no need for it (i.e. "lo= gerku cu barda" vs. "lo gerku
> =A0 =A0 =A0ku
> =A0 =A0 =A0> > > > barda"). There are vocal proponent= s on each side, so it amounts
> =A0 =A0 =A0to a
> =A0 =A0 =A0> > > > dialectical split, but.. so what?
> =A0 =A0 =A0> > > > --gejyspa
> =A0 =A0 =A0>
> =A0 =A0 =A0> > > > --
> =A0 =A0 =A0> > > > You received this message because you a= re subscribed to the
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