From lojban+bncCOWVnJObDhDpuO3sBBoEEa5R5Q@googlegroups.com Tue Apr 05 11:16:26 2011 Received: from mail-qy0-f189.google.com ([209.85.216.189]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1Q7Ane-0005tg-0H; Tue, 05 Apr 2011 11:16:26 -0700 Received: by qyk36 with SMTP id 36sf622580qyk.16 for ; Tue, 05 Apr 2011 11:16:16 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:x-beenthere:mime-version:date:in-reply-to:x-ip :references:user-agent:x-http-via:x-http-useragent:message-id :subject:from:to:x-original-sender:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:x-google-group-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender :list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; bh=j3oaWA/GvzcBXznlovFauoPtv40LqYkRV+N1SJJjy4o=; b=f5fOpwuXVYnPuuWAtiqaSUvLLGHwb8bC3VjI+0fAl/L8KLjwIJP7gTMnCB44b4Q6Wr o6x/8SIdWRCE7QjsVmTSQMkJrLaD5HGN2j+VAvmjEObhdHEwklx8ALSgmT7cPcppn0LB XwFx+lw7YhJLwIBPa2hMdY2PD9BIQUZmOm5j8= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:mime-version:date:in-reply-to:x-ip:references :user-agent:x-http-via:x-http-useragent:message-id:subject:from:to :x-original-sender:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list:list-id :x-google-group-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender :list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; b=t01IYr4TskalQo7pWfguYODBGry9qB58ee1NfWyYizwMns4Ss1TdWSkLKJ0ehLvvXn o5Lzz6/FpnSVe7lNs1w7URdE3e1YtNTZiux32T+mBb71PbXmpys9HAU7wcrGljMJyxjY 2c851WnOvatfjusx4NqfZS6GQV1CVXBxtHnvM= Received: by 10.224.27.72 with SMTP id h8mr425662qac.58.1302027369538; Tue, 05 Apr 2011 11:16:09 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.224.135.40 with SMTP id l40ls10236qat.7.p; Tue, 05 Apr 2011 11:16:08 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.224.204.195 with SMTP id fn3mr222qab.8.1302027368973; Tue, 05 Apr 2011 11:16:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: by dn9g2000vbb.googlegroups.com with HTTP; Tue, 5 Apr 2011 11:16:08 -0700 (PDT) Date: Tue, 5 Apr 2011 11:16:08 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: X-IP: 88.250.85.74 References: <0a74da06-07cf-4b52-a329-ed0ebbae2f5b@u8g2000yqh.googlegroups.com> User-Agent: G2/1.0 X-HTTP-Via: 1.1 bsna.tur.wtbts.net:3128 (squid/2.7.STABLE7), 1.0 bsna.tur.wtbts.net:3128 (squid/2.7.STABLE7) X-HTTP-UserAgent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 6.0; en-GB; rv:1.9.2.16) Gecko/20110319 Firefox/3.6.16 ( .NET CLR 3.5.30729),gzip(gfe) Message-ID: <95aef4de-a5f4-4747-bdb5-58d5b71295af@dn9g2000vbb.googlegroups.com> Subject: [lojban] Re: I love Lojban's approach, but what's the deal with place tags? From: "Joel T." To: lojban X-Original-Sender: joelofarabia@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable OK I'm not having a whole lot of joy with Google, so what are BAI and SE? On Apr 5, 8:41=A0pm, Luke Bergen wrote: > That makes more sense. =A0I would think that communication would be very > difficult indeed if Turkish did {mi do lo zdani la mil.rod lo karce cu > klama} =A0(in english: I to you from the house along mill road in the car= do > come) (only english adds even more information than the lojban because of > the necessary "to", "from", "along", etc...). =A0Using BAI like tags woul= d at > least make the previous sentence a bit easier to keep up with. > > Joel, jumping around like that with FA (like in the L4B example) is > certainly not the norm. =A0It's just an existing technique that by virtue= of > other constructs in the language, will always be possible to do. =A0It ha= s a > similar flavor to me as an english statement like "I to you do come" or "= I > do thee wed". =A0It sounds kind of funny and some people might have some > trouble grasping what's being said... but it's still valid english and mo= st > people probably will get it... it just kind of sounds funny. > > For purposes of emphasis, we usually use SE to swap places. > > On Tue, Apr 5, 2011 at 12:45 PM, Jonathan Jones wrote= : > > FA merely marks which place in the defined place structure if being fil= led > > by the following sumti. {fa} always marks the x1 of the bridi. You have= to > > know the place structure of the selbri in order to know what relation i= s > > bring applied to the sumti following FA. I don't know Turkish, but I be= lieve > > that language's tags are more like our BAI. > > > to pu benji di'u fo lo mi me la.android. fonxa toi > > mu'o mi'e.aionys. > > > On Apr 5, 2011 9:36 AM, "Joel T." wrote: > > > OK, fair enough. I hope my comments didn't seem overly dogmatic. If > > indeed as you say all these elements are indispensable then I am > > wrong, and as I said in my original post, I couldn't be happier! > > > In that case it would be like me saying that English is flawed because > > you can remove all the words of French origin and you'd still have a > > complete language. The premise is correct, but the inertia of current > > usage means that this will never happen. I just never thought that > > such variety could be present in the grammar of a language and not > > just the vocabulary. > > > I suppose I should have really started by giving an example. In > > Chapter 2 of Lojban for Beginners (http://www.tlg.uci.edu/~opoudjis/ > > lojbanbrochure/lessons/less2changeplaces.html), > > if I have understood > > correctly it basically tells me that if I feel like it I can say (and > > therefore have to be able to understand): > > > la suzyn. klama la paris. la berlin. zo'e le karce (English structure) > > > and > > > la suzyn. fu le karce fi la berlin. fe la paris. klama (Turkish > > structure) > > > You can imagine how hard it is for native English speakers to get used > > to Turkish sentence structure, in fact my parents never quite did. At > > least in Turkish when you change the structure of a sentence you do it > > for a reason, like emphasis. But Lojban expects me to be able to adapt > > mid-paragraph for somebody who uses any and all possible sentence > > structures on a whim! My brain would flip! > > > Everything I know about language tells me that people get used to > > expressing themselves according to specific structures. Which is why I > > arrived at the conclusion that any population of fluent Lojban > > speakers would very quickly get used to ordering certain sentences in > > certain ways instead of constantly mixing up their grammar, which > > requires conscious thought. > > > Again, please do correct me if I'm wrong, and I get the feeling I > > probably am. I would like to thank everybody who has replied to my > > original post for taking it in the spirit intended. You have all > > encouraged me to take a closer look at Lojban! > > > On Apr 5, 5:22 pm, Luke Bergen wrote: > > > Yeah Joel, I think what you're miss... > > > > On Tue, Apr 5, 2011 at 6:17 AM, Joel T. wrot= e: > > =A0> > That was my point exac... > > > =A0-- > > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Grou= ps > > "lojban" group. > > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > > lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > > For more options, visit this group at > >http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den. --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou= ps.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= ?hl=3Den.