From lojban+bncCOib25n_BhCKv-3sBBoEaneTsg@googlegroups.com Tue Apr 05 11:29:55 2011 Received: from mail-gy0-f189.google.com ([209.85.160.189]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1Q7B0a-00053Q-5Y; Tue, 05 Apr 2011 11:29:50 -0700 Received: by gyf1 with SMTP id 1sf1300973gyf.16 for ; Tue, 05 Apr 2011 11:29:36 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version :in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to:cc :x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:x-google-group-id:list-post :list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe :content-type; bh=mxVGHzBp5kLZdTerNldPOyM1kWjF0kM35xes6nEK36E=; b=A3BMk0TcLUjL843sqHs1ViM9Cwdh6Kq9EYZP+AL0mH7D6pGJI+TNwxq38lo0xeHs/j jMI+Ikjxqbcda2pwfvJVQWl3sHt1oXvKjvdhJC5r0LWcyQ8P+WOES4A4ADft4i1GOo6i mhQcQnUsafFe1yKpubb4+6/VM62PoYVBK+m6k= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date :message-id:subject:from:to:cc:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:x-google-group-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender :list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; b=0qRN0Liqj5w4hkTTtiDdMcXvEBRJfqlvY57XaYL6xEvhRGqWp2qWJA8i5VN415xvGP pGRwpBpBZaWiCKcu6Oa5mKE/Y3J69tB9kzU8LkARLGUlOq3zJ5vQzzIl1oyrA/7y7OvK 0jPXqhIhIgnNICLjJNxz0bACA9VUvksps5Yj4= Received: by 10.100.23.12 with SMTP id 12mr5141anw.11.1302028170325; Tue, 05 Apr 2011 11:29:30 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.231.8.234 with SMTP id i42ls71383ibi.3.p; Tue, 05 Apr 2011 11:29:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.42.136.4 with SMTP id r4mr1074454ict.43.1302028169572; Tue, 05 Apr 2011 11:29:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.42.136.4 with SMTP id r4mr1074453ict.43.1302028169551; Tue, 05 Apr 2011 11:29:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-iw0-f181.google.com (mail-iw0-f181.google.com [209.85.214.181]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id wr7si1091322icb.2.2011.04.05.11.29.29 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Tue, 05 Apr 2011 11:29:29 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of rpglover64@gmail.com designates 209.85.214.181 as permitted sender) client-ip=209.85.214.181; Received: by iwn2 with SMTP id 2so737749iwn.12 for ; Tue, 05 Apr 2011 11:29:29 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.42.147.196 with SMTP id o4mr4212icv.183.1302028169211; Tue, 05 Apr 2011 11:29:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.42.175.201 with HTTP; Tue, 5 Apr 2011 11:29:29 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <95aef4de-a5f4-4747-bdb5-58d5b71295af@dn9g2000vbb.googlegroups.com> References: <0a74da06-07cf-4b52-a329-ed0ebbae2f5b@u8g2000yqh.googlegroups.com> <95aef4de-a5f4-4747-bdb5-58d5b71295af@dn9g2000vbb.googlegroups.com> Date: Tue, 5 Apr 2011 14:29:29 -0400 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban] Re: I love Lojban's approach, but what's the deal with place tags? From: Alex Rozenshteyn To: lojban@googlegroups.com Cc: "Joel T." X-Original-Sender: rpglover64@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of rpglover64@gmail.com designates 209.85.214.181 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=rpglover64@gmail.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=90e6ba613bf0836e1a04a0300ea8 --90e6ba613bf0836e1a04a0300ea8 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 SE is the name used to refer to the selma'o (grammatical class/family) which includes the words {se}, {te}, {ve}, and {xe}. You can read about it here http://dag.github.com/cll/9/4/ BAI is the name for the selma'o that includes many words that add meaning to bridi, much like prepositions in English, but more precise and more varied. You can read about it here http://dag.github.com/cll/9/6/ and see a complete list here http://dag.github.com/cll/9/17/ On Tue, Apr 5, 2011 at 2:16 PM, Joel T. wrote: > OK I'm not having a whole lot of joy with Google, so what are BAI and > SE? > > On Apr 5, 8:41 pm, Luke Bergen wrote: > > That makes more sense. I would think that communication would be very > > difficult indeed if Turkish did {mi do lo zdani la mil.rod lo karce cu > > klama} (in english: I to you from the house along mill road in the car > do > > come) (only english adds even more information than the lojban because of > > the necessary "to", "from", "along", etc...). Using BAI like tags would > at > > least make the previous sentence a bit easier to keep up with. > > > > Joel, jumping around like that with FA (like in the L4B example) is > > certainly not the norm. It's just an existing technique that by virtue > of > > other constructs in the language, will always be possible to do. It has > a > > similar flavor to me as an english statement like "I to you do come" or > "I > > do thee wed". It sounds kind of funny and some people might have some > > trouble grasping what's being said... but it's still valid english and > most > > people probably will get it... it just kind of sounds funny. > > > > For purposes of emphasis, we usually use SE to swap places. > > > > On Tue, Apr 5, 2011 at 12:45 PM, Jonathan Jones > wrote: > > > FA merely marks which place in the defined place structure if being > filled > > > by the following sumti. {fa} always marks the x1 of the bridi. You have > to > > > know the place structure of the selbri in order to know what relation > is > > > bring applied to the sumti following FA. I don't know Turkish, but I > believe > > > that language's tags are more like our BAI. > > > > > to pu benji di'u fo lo mi me la.android. fonxa toi > > > mu'o mi'e.aionys. > > > > > On Apr 5, 2011 9:36 AM, "Joel T." wrote: > > > > > OK, fair enough. I hope my comments didn't seem overly dogmatic. If > > > indeed as you say all these elements are indispensable then I am > > > wrong, and as I said in my original post, I couldn't be happier! > > > > > In that case it would be like me saying that English is flawed because > > > you can remove all the words of French origin and you'd still have a > > > complete language. The premise is correct, but the inertia of current > > > usage means that this will never happen. I just never thought that > > > such variety could be present in the grammar of a language and not > > > just the vocabulary. > > > > > I suppose I should have really started by giving an example. In > > > Chapter 2 of Lojban for Beginners (http://www.tlg.uci.edu/~opoudjis/ > > > lojbanbrochure/lessons/less2changeplaces.html< > http://www.tlg.uci.edu/~opoudjis/lojbanbrochure/lessons/less2changepl.. > .>), > > > if I have understood > > > correctly it basically tells me that if I feel like it I can say (and > > > therefore have to be able to understand): > > > > > la suzyn. klama la paris. la berlin. zo'e le karce (English structure) > > > > > and > > > > > la suzyn. fu le karce fi la berlin. fe la paris. klama (Turkish > > > structure) > > > > > You can imagine how hard it is for native English speakers to get used > > > to Turkish sentence structure, in fact my parents never quite did. At > > > least in Turkish when you change the structure of a sentence you do it > > > for a reason, like emphasis. But Lojban expects me to be able to adapt > > > mid-paragraph for somebody who uses any and all possible sentence > > > structures on a whim! My brain would flip! > > > > > Everything I know about language tells me that people get used to > > > expressing themselves according to specific structures. Which is why I > > > arrived at the conclusion that any population of fluent Lojban > > > speakers would very quickly get used to ordering certain sentences in > > > certain ways instead of constantly mixing up their grammar, which > > > requires conscious thought. > > > > > Again, please do correct me if I'm wrong, and I get the feeling I > > > probably am. I would like to thank everybody who has replied to my > > > original post for taking it in the spirit intended. You have all > > > encouraged me to take a closer look at Lojban! > > > > > On Apr 5, 5:22 pm, Luke Bergen wrote: > > > > Yeah Joel, I think what you're miss... > > > > > > On Tue, Apr 5, 2011 at 6:17 AM, Joel T. > wrote: > > > > > That was my point exac... > > > > > -- > > > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google > Groups > > > "lojban" group. > > > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > > > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > > > lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > > > For more options, visit this group at > > >http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "lojban" group. > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. > > -- Alex R -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. --90e6ba613bf0836e1a04a0300ea8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable SE is the name used to refer to the selma'o (grammatical class/family) = which includes the words {se}, {te}, {ve}, and {xe}. You can read about it = here http://dag.github.com/cll/9= /4/

BAI is the name for the selma'o that includes many words that add m= eaning to bridi, much like prepositions in English, but more precise and mo= re varied. You can read about it here http://dag.github.com/cll/9/6/ and see a complete list here http://dag.github.com/cll/9/17/ =

On Tue, Apr 5, 2011 at 2:16 PM, Joel T. <joelofarabia@gm= ail.com> wrote:
OK I'm not having a whole lot of joy with Google, so what are BAI and SE?

On Apr 5, 8:41=A0pm, Luke Bergen <lukeaber...@gmail.com> wrote:
> That makes more sense. =A0I would think that communication would be ve= ry
> difficult indeed if Turkish did {mi do lo zdani la mil.rod lo karce cu=
> klama} =A0(in english: I to you from the house along mill road in the = car do
> come) (only english adds even more information than the lojban because= of
> the necessary "to", "from", "along", etc= ...). =A0Using BAI like tags would at
> least make the previous sentence a bit easier to keep up with.
>
> Joel, jumping around like that with FA (like in the L4B example) is > certainly not the norm. =A0It's just an existing technique that by= virtue of
> other constructs in the language, will always be possible to do. =A0It= has a
> similar flavor to me as an english statement like "I to you do co= me" or "I
> do thee wed". =A0It sounds kind of funny and some people might ha= ve some
> trouble grasping what's being said... but it's still valid eng= lish and most
> people probably will get it... it just kind of sounds funny.
>
> For purposes of emphasis, we usually use SE to swap places.
>
> On Tue, Apr 5, 2011 at 12:45 PM, Jonathan Jone= s <eyeo...@gmail.com> wrote:=
> > FA merely marks which place in the defined place structure if bei= ng filled
> > by the following sumti. {fa} always marks the x1 of the bridi. Yo= u have to
> > know the place structure of the selbri in order to know what rela= tion is
> > bring applied to the sumti following FA. I don't know Turkish= , but I believe
> > that language's tags are more like our BAI.
>
> > to pu benji di'u fo lo mi me la.android. fonxa toi
> > mu'o mi'e.aionys.
>
> > On Apr 5, 2011 9:36 AM, "Joel T.&quo= t; <joelofara...@gmail.com= > wrote:
>
> > OK, fair enough. I hope my comments didn't seem overly dogmat= ic. If
> > indeed as you say all these elements are indispensable then I am<= br> > > wrong, and as I said in my original post, I couldn't be happi= er!
>
> > In that case it would be like me saying that English is flawed be= cause
> > you can remove all the words of French origin and you'd still= have a
> > complete language. The premise is correct, but the inertia of cur= rent
> > usage means that this will never happen. I just never thought tha= t
> > such variety could be present in the grammar of a language and no= t
> > just the vocabulary.
>
> > I suppose I should have really started by giving an example. In > > Chapter 2 of Lojban for Beginners (http://www.tlg.uci.edu/~opoudjis/
> > lojbanbrochure/lessons/less2changeplaces.html<http://www.tlg.uci.edu/~opoudjis/lojbanbrochure/lessons/= less2changepl...>),
> > if I have understood
> > correctly it basically tells me that if I feel like it I can say = (and
> > therefore have to be able to understand):
>
> > la suzyn. klama la paris. la berlin. zo'e le karce (English s= tructure)
>
> > and
>
> > la suzyn. fu le karce fi la berlin. fe la paris. klama (Turkish > > structure)
>
> > You can imagine how hard it is for native English speakers to get= used
> > to Turkish sentence structure, in fact my parents never quite did= . At
> > least in Turkish when you change the structure of a sentence you = do it
> > for a reason, like emphasis. But Lojban expects me to be able to = adapt
> > mid-paragraph for somebody who uses any and all possible sentence=
> > structures on a whim! My brain would flip!
>
> > Everything I know about language tells me that people get used to=
> > expressing themselves according to specific structures. Which is = why I
> > arrived at the conclusion that any population of fluent Lojban > > speakers would very quickly get used to ordering certain sentence= s in
> > certain ways instead of constantly mixing up their grammar, which=
> > requires conscious thought.
>
> > Again, please do correct me if I'm wrong, and I get the feeli= ng I
> > probably am. I would like to thank everybody who has replied to m= y
> > original post for taking it in the spirit intended. You have all<= br> > > encouraged me to take a closer look at Lojban!
>
> > On Apr 5, 5:22 pm, Luke Bergen <lukeaber...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > Yeah Joel, I think what you're miss...
>
> > > On Tue, Apr 5, 2011 at 6:17 AM, Joel T. <joelofara...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > =A0> > That was my point exac...
>
> > =A0--
> > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Googl= e Groups
> > "lojban" group.
> > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
> > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to
> > lojban+u= nsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
> > For more options, visit this group at
> >http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den.

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--
=A0=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0Alex R

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group.
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