From lojban+bncCOib25n_BhDmze3sBBoEX-Omkw@googlegroups.com Tue Apr 05 12:01:19 2011 Received: from mail-yi0-f61.google.com ([209.85.218.61]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1Q7BUy-0004vG-8U; Tue, 05 Apr 2011 12:01:19 -0700 Received: by yie19 with SMTP id 19sf1353750yie.16 for ; Tue, 05 Apr 2011 12:01:01 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version :in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to:cc :x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:x-google-group-id:list-post :list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe :content-type; bh=S/IfgutJyEwdUbhBMbMIW1ACNN6cub+4jhaZXmuCr7Y=; b=RhXWKdqijQ1T+5hoDN7ldWjV6It0ZKJ1VL0SL2NwhaHTHxw/KbHuTFbqQwKEK+DanW tqTbduracRSJ9FQpBmynNGqIkfgBY9DR4hJXtAcoPTrv4/q/lmC1Aj8GYE5R1zsH8Fdw Bj/8mf6j4ZRLp/h9mRROoSnJIUqucBe/VNYTw= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date :message-id:subject:from:to:cc:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:x-google-group-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender :list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; b=i2QmDDqGso+h/4H9458XxqhBY3Asi0z5sOrk+W3a5cf4ghvBSnlX8qi3G3w8+M71Nc gzgsS65Q0Crpp4w4WNNeWAtWMMttjMyYtAjkfCaKTSxs04WtThadU7DeygntxFAV0Z12 zD7NrieakQmetaH+NHzgcKRx6UkiYtOkO4rqU= Received: by 10.91.21.40 with SMTP id y40mr160584agi.36.1302030054773; Tue, 05 Apr 2011 12:00:54 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.91.202.30 with SMTP id e30ls119877agq.1.p; Tue, 05 Apr 2011 12:00:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.236.63.134 with SMTP id a6mr287yhd.27.1302030052685; Tue, 05 Apr 2011 12:00:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.236.63.134 with SMTP id a6mr285yhd.27.1302030052629; Tue, 05 Apr 2011 12:00:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-yx0-f176.google.com (mail-yx0-f176.google.com [209.85.213.176]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id 64si1360583yhl.0.2011.04.05.12.00.52 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Tue, 05 Apr 2011 12:00:52 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of rpglover64@gmail.com designates 209.85.213.176 as permitted sender) client-ip=209.85.213.176; Received: by yxd5 with SMTP id 5so370539yxd.35 for ; Tue, 05 Apr 2011 12:00:52 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.43.54.142 with SMTP id vu14mr15446icb.384.1302030052285; Tue, 05 Apr 2011 12:00:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.42.175.201 with HTTP; Tue, 5 Apr 2011 12:00:52 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <20110405183621.GB11417@alice.local> References: <0a74da06-07cf-4b52-a329-ed0ebbae2f5b@u8g2000yqh.googlegroups.com> <20110405163732.GA11417@alice.local> <20110405183621.GB11417@alice.local> Date: Tue, 5 Apr 2011 15:00:52 -0400 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban] Re: I love Lojban's approach, but what's the deal with place tags? From: Alex Rozenshteyn To: lojban@googlegroups.com Cc: ".alyn.post." X-Original-Sender: rpglover64@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of rpglover64@gmail.com designates 209.85.213.176 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=rpglover64@gmail.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=bcaec51ddb6dc0dd1f04a0307e69 --bcaec51ddb6dc0dd1f04a0307e69 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 na xu se jetnu lo du'u <> <> dunli lo smuni On Tue, Apr 5, 2011 at 2:36 PM, .alyn.post. wrote: > .i o'onai ke'a si ko'a > > .i mi fanva lu ko xu li'u fu zoi .gy. "is it true that you will make > it true?" .gy. .a zoi .gy. "Can you make it true?" .gy. > > .i mi na jimpe lo nu cusku ko'a va'o lo selma'o be su'o zo fa to zoi > .fanva. I can't say my example sentence without using FA .fanva. toi > > .i ki'edo'u mi ca me lo jimpe poi do xusra > > .i mu'o mi'e .alyn. > > On Tue, Apr 05, 2011 at 01:59:21PM -0400, Alex Rozenshteyn wrote: > > doi .alan.post. > > > > ki'a ru'e .i na jimpe fi zo ko joi zo xu gi'e na jimpe fi lo mukti > do'e zo > > ke'a > > > > ni'o > > mi na pu cusku lo du'u va'o ro zo'e na pilno lo selma'o zo fa .i ku'i > > cusku lo du'u va'o lo na'e sarcu ku na pilno > > > > (I'm not quite sure what you meant by using "ko" and "xu" together, > and > > I'm not sure why you used "ke'a" > > > > I didn't say never to use FA; I said that they shouldn't be used when > not > > necessary.) > > > > On Tue, Apr 5, 2011 at 12:37 PM, .alyn.post. > > <[1]alyn.post@lodockikumazvati.org> wrote: > > > > doi .arpis. > > > > .i ko xu ba cusku ke'a goi lu .i mi djica lo za'i ponse fa do lo > rokci > > li'u > > poi na pilno zo fa .i mi na jimpe lo cusku be ke'a > > .i mu'o mi'e .alyn. > > > > On Tue, Apr 05, 2011 at 12:01:05PM -0400, .arpis. wrote: > > > I'm biased, but I find the English structure to be more > understandable > > and > > > natural, and not only because I speak English. > > > > > > The selbri comes early in the sentence, allowing the listener to > start > > > understanding the relationships between the sumti before the > sentence > > is > > > finished, and FA tags, unlike case endings, have no intrinsic > meaning > > > apart from the selbri. > > > > > > Also, as I understand it, the FA tags are meant to provide the > > facility to > > > reorder sentences when it is convenient, e.g. {mi klama fu lo > karce}, > > not > > > to allow arbitrary re-orderings; that's what BAI can be for. A > > somewhat > > > contrived example: {kla la .suzyn. xekla lo karce tekla la > .berlin. > > sekla > > > la .paris. co'e} > > > > > > On Tue, Apr 5, 2011 at 11:36 AM, Joel T. > > <[1][2]joelofarabia@gmail.com> > > > wrote: > > > > > > OK, fair enough. I hope my comments didn't seem overly dogmatic. > If > > > indeed as you say all these elements are indispensable then I am > > > wrong, and as I said in my original post, I couldn't be happier! > > > > > > In that case it would be like me saying that English is flawed > because > > > you can remove all the words of French origin and you'd still have > a > > > complete language. The premise is correct, but the inertia of > current > > > usage means that this will never happen. I just never thought that > > > such variety could be present in the grammar of a language and not > > > just the vocabulary. > > > > > > I suppose I should have really started by giving an example. In > > > Chapter 2 of Lojban for Beginners > > ([2][3]http://www.tlg.uci.edu/~opoudjis/ > > > lojbanbrochure/lessons/less2changeplaces.html), if I have > understood > > > correctly it basically tells me that if I feel like it I can say > (and > > > therefore have to be able to understand): > > > > > > la suzyn. klama la paris. la berlin. zo'e le karce (English > structure) > > > > > > and > > > > > > la suzyn. fu le karce fi la berlin. fe la paris. klama (Turkish > > > structure) > > > > > > You can imagine how hard it is for native English speakers to get > used > > > to Turkish sentence structure, in fact my parents never quite did. > At > > > least in Turkish when you change the structure of a sentence you > do it > > > for a reason, like emphasis. But Lojban expects me to be able to > adapt > > > mid-paragraph for somebody who uses any and all possible sentence > > > structures on a whim! My brain would flip! > > > > > > Everything I know about language tells me that people get used to > > > expressing themselves according to specific structures. Which is > why I > > > arrived at the conclusion that any population of fluent Lojban > > > speakers would very quickly get used to ordering certain sentences > in > > > certain ways instead of constantly mixing up their grammar, which > > > requires conscious thought. > > > > > > Again, please do correct me if I'm wrong, and I get the feeling I > > > probably am. I would like to thank everybody who has replied to my > > > original post for taking it in the spirit intended. You have all > > > encouraged me to take a closer look at Lojban! > > > On Apr 5, 5:22 pm, Luke Bergen <[3][4]lukeaber...@gmail.com> > wrote: > > > > Yeah Joel, I think what you're missing at this early stage in > your > > > learning > > > > is that both FA *and* knowing the place structures are extremely > > > important > > > > if you want to be fluent. > > > > > > > > I understand your concerns. You agreed that I was representing > your > > > > argument accurately. What you may have misunderstood was that my > > last > > > > paragraph about "if one group of people liked the place > > structure.... > > > been > > > > dropped out of the language by this group)" was mildly > sarcastic. > > > > > > > > The idea of a group of people using lojban and simply > > > forgetting/dropping FA > > > > and/or the default place structure of the gismu is completely > > absurd. > > > It > > > > could happen, but it would take (my guess) centuries of shifting > for > > > that to > > > > happen. It's so fundamental to a proper understanding of the > > language > > > that > > > > if anyone dropped FA or began forgetting the place structures, I > > would > > > argue > > > > that it was darn-near a completely different language. > > > > > > > > I'd put it on par with English switching to a system more like > what > > > they > > > > have in Turkey (as you describe it). Such a thing would be (at > best) > > > an > > > > extremely bastardized version of English. Likewise, lojban > without > > FA > > > would > > > > be quite a stretch. > > > > > > > > On Tue, Apr 5, 2011 at 6:17 AM, Joel T. > > <[4][5]joelofara...@gmail.com> > > > wrote: > > > > > That was my point exactly. True fluency means completely > > > internalizing > > > > > a language so that the words just flow out of your mouth > without > > > > > thinking. You're completely "out of the book" to use a chess > > > > > expression. And a community of truly fluent people would be > > > influenced > > > > > more by each other than any conscious thought given to the > > official > > > > > rules of grammar. A true Sapir-Whorf test would demand nothing > > less. > > > > > > > > > The point I'm making about running two systems side-by-side is > > that > > > in > > > > > any community of truly fluent people, either one of them would > get > > > > > phased out, or they would diverge in meaning, usage, > connotation > > > etc. > > > > > At the very least it would become a way of differentiating > between > > > > > cliques, which is the thin end of the wedge for > dialectisation. > > You > > > > > just can't have two ways of doing exactly the same thing with > only > > > > > whim to choose between them. It's great in class, but in the > field > > > > > it's not tenable. It's not how language works. > > > > > > > > > On Apr 4, 10:04 pm, Luke Bergen <[5][6]lukeaber...@gmail.com> > > wrote: > > > > > > I think his point was that these dialectic splits could > result > > in > > > two > > > > > groups > > > > > > of people not being able to understand one another. > > > > > > > > > > If one group of people liked using the place structure so > much > > > that they > > > > > > just ignored FA what would happen if they saw something like > {fi > > > lo zdani > > > > > cu > > > > > > klama fa mi lo zarci} and got completely confused (you know, > cuz > > > > > generations > > > > > > later FA would have basically been dropped out of the > language > > by > > > this > > > > > > group). > > > > > > > > > > On Mon, Apr 4, 2011 at 2:35 PM, Michael Turniansky < > > > > > [6][7]mturnian...@gmail.com>wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > On Sun, Apr 3, 2011 at 8:08 PM, Joel T. > > > <[7][8]joelofara...@gmail.com> > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > >> In any case, surely running two systems side-by-side is > > asking > > > for > > > > > > >> dialectisation (is that a word?), where speakers in one > area > > > get used > > > > > > >> to one system while speakers in another prefer the other? > > > > > > > > > > > It can, and does. But we consider the flexibility to be a > > plus. > > > > > That > > > > > > > way, any person coming from a natural language background > of > > > say, > > > > > Turkish, > > > > > > > can from sentences the way that seems most natural to > them, > > > while > > > > > someone > > > > > > > coming from an English background can form setnences the > most > > > natural > > > > > way to > > > > > > > them. And both will be understood equally well. We had, > for > > > example, > > > > > a > > > > > > > while a back, a discussion over which was "better": to use > > "cu" > > > often, > > > > > or to > > > > > > > totally eschew it in favor of sumti that are competely > > > terminated so > > > > > that > > > > > > > there was no need for it (i.e. "lo gerku cu barda" vs. "lo > > gerku > > > ku > > > > > > > barda"). There are vocal proponents on each side, so it > > amounts > > > to a > > > > > > > dialectical split, but.. so what? > > > > > > > --gejyspa > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > > > > You received this message because you are subscribed to > the > > > Google > > > > > Groups > > > > > > > "lojban" group. > > > > > > > To post to this group, send email to > > [8][9]lojban@googlegroups.com. > > > > > > > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > > > > > > > [9][10]lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > > > > > > > For more options, visit this group at > > > > > > >[10][11]http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > > You received this message because you are subscribed to the > Google > > > Groups > > > > > "lojban" group. > > > > > To post to this group, send email to > > [11][12]lojban@googlegroups.com. > > > > > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > > > > > [12][13]lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > > > > > For more options, visit this group at > > > > >[13][14]http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. > > > > > > -- > > > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google > > > Groups "lojban" group. > > > To post to this group, send email to [14][15] > lojban@googlegroups.com. > > > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > > > [15][16]lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > > > For more options, visit this group at > > > [16][17]http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. > > > > > > -- > > > mu'o mi'e .arpis. > > > > > > -- > > > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google > > Groups > > > "lojban" group. > > > To post to this group, send email to [18]lojban@googlegroups.com. > > > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > > > [19]lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > > > For more options, visit this group at > > > [20]http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. > > > > > > References > > > > > > Visible links > > > 1. mailto:[21]joelofarabia@gmail.com > > > 2. > > [22] > http://www.tlg.uci.edu/%7Eopoudjis/%0Alojbanbrochure/lessons/less2changeplaces.html > > > 3. mailto:[23]lukeaber...@gmail.com > > > 4. mailto:[24]joelofara...@gmail.com > > > 5. mailto:[25]lukeaber...@gmail.com > > > 6. mailto:[26]mturnian...@gmail.com > > > 7. mailto:[27]joelofara...@gmail.com > > > 8. mailto:[28]lojban@googlegroups.com > > > 9. mailto:[29]lojban%2Bunsubscribe@googlegroups.com > > > 10. [30]http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en > > > 11. mailto:[31]lojban@googlegroups.com > > > 12. mailto:[32]lojban%2Bunsubscribe@googlegroups.com > > > 13. [33]http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en > > > 14. mailto:[34]lojban@googlegroups.com > > > 15. mailto:[35]lojban%2Bunsubscribe@googlegroups.com > > > 16. [36]http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en > > -- > > .i ma'a lo bradi ku penmi gi'e du > > > > -- > > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google > > Groups "lojban" group. > > To post to this group, send email to [37]lojban@googlegroups.com. > > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > > [38]lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > > For more options, visit this group at > > [39]http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. > > > > -- > > Alex R > > > > -- > > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google > Groups > > "lojban" group. > > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > > lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > > For more options, visit this group at > > http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. > > > > References > > > > Visible links > > 1. mailto:alyn.post@lodockikumazvati.org > > 2. mailto:joelofarabia@gmail.com > > 3. http://www.tlg.uci.edu/%7Eopoudjis/ > > 4. mailto:lukeaber...@gmail.com > > 5. mailto:joelofara...@gmail.com > > 6. mailto:lukeaber...@gmail.com > > 7. mailto:mturnian...@gmail.com > > 8. mailto:joelofara...@gmail.com > > 9. mailto:lojban@googlegroups.com > > 10. mailto:lojban%2Bunsubscribe@googlegroups.com > > 11. http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en > > 12. mailto:lojban@googlegroups.com > > 13. mailto:lojban%2Bunsubscribe@googlegroups.com > > 14. http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en > > 15. mailto:lojban@googlegroups.com > > 16. mailto:lojban%2Bunsubscribe@googlegroups.com > > 17. http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en > > 18. mailto:lojban@googlegroups.com > > 19. mailto:lojban%2Bunsubscribe@googlegroups.com > > 20. http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en > > 21. mailto:joelofarabia@gmail.com > > 22. > http://www.tlg.uci.edu/%7Eopoudjis/%0Alojbanbrochure/lessons/less2changeplaces.html > > 23. mailto:lukeaber...@gmail.com > > 24. mailto:joelofara...@gmail.com > > 25. mailto:lukeaber...@gmail.com > > 26. mailto:mturnian...@gmail.com > > 27. mailto:joelofara...@gmail.com > > 28. mailto:lojban@googlegroups.com > > 29. mailto:lojban%252Bunsubscribe@googlegroups.com > > 30. http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en > > 31. mailto:lojban@googlegroups.com > > 32. mailto:lojban%252Bunsubscribe@googlegroups.com > > 33. http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en > > 34. mailto:lojban@googlegroups.com > > 35. mailto:lojban%252Bunsubscribe@googlegroups.com > > 36. http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en > > 37. mailto:lojban@googlegroups.com > > 38. mailto:lojban%2Bunsubscribe@googlegroups.com > > 39. http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en > > -- > .i ma'a lo bradi ku penmi gi'e du > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "lojban" group. > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. > > -- Alex R -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. --bcaec51ddb6dc0dd1f04a0307e69 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable na xu se jetnu lo du'u <<lu .i mi djica lo za'i ponse fa do l= o rokci li'u>> <<lu .i mi djica lo za'i do ponse lo rok= ci li'u>> dunli lo smuni

On Tue= , Apr 5, 2011 at 2:36 PM, .alyn.post. <alyn.post@lodockikumazvati.org> wrote:
.i o'onai ke'a si ko'a

.i mi fanva lu ko xu li'u fu zoi .gy. "is it true that you will ma= ke
it true?" .gy. .a zoi .gy. "Can you make it true?" .gy.

.i mi na jimpe lo nu cusku ko'a va'o lo selma'o be su'o zo = fa to zoi
.fanva. I can't say my example sentence without using FA .fanva. toi
.i ki'edo'u mi ca me lo jimpe poi do xusra

.i mu'o mi'e .alyn.

On Tue, Apr 05, 2011 at 01:59:21PM -0400, Alex Roze= nshteyn wrote:
> =A0 =A0doi .alan.post.
>
> =A0 =A0ki'a ru'e .i na jimpe fi zo ko joi zo xu gi'e na ji= mpe fi lo mukti do'e zo
> =A0 =A0ke'a
>
> =A0 =A0ni'o
> =A0 =A0mi na pu cusku lo du'u va'o ro zo'e na pilno lo sel= ma'o zo fa .i ku'i
> =A0 =A0cusku lo du'u va'o lo na'e sarcu ku na pilno
>
> =A0 =A0(I'm not quite sure what you meant by using "ko" = and "xu" together, and
> =A0 =A0I'm not sure why you used "ke'a"
>
> =A0 =A0I didn't say never to use FA; I said that they shouldn'= t be used when not
> =A0 =A0necessary.)
>
> =A0 =A0On Tue, Apr 5, 2011 at 12:37 PM, .alyn.post.
> =A0 =A0<[1]alyn.post@lodockikumazvati.org> wr= ote:
>
> =A0 =A0 =A0doi .arpis.
>
> =A0 =A0 =A0.i ko xu ba cusku ke'a goi lu .i mi djica lo za'i p= onse fa do lo rokci
> =A0 =A0 =A0li'u
> =A0 =A0 =A0poi na pilno zo fa .i mi na jimpe lo cusku be ke'a
> =A0 =A0 =A0.i mu'o mi'e .alyn.
>
> =A0 =A0 =A0On Tue, Apr 05, 2011 at 12:01:05PM -0400, .arpis. wrote: > =A0 =A0 =A0> I'm biased, but I find the English structure to be= more understandable
> =A0 =A0 =A0and
> =A0 =A0 =A0> natural, and not only because I speak English.
> =A0 =A0 =A0>
> =A0 =A0 =A0> The selbri comes early in the sentence, allowing the l= istener to start
> =A0 =A0 =A0> understanding the relationships between the sumti befo= re the sentence
> =A0 =A0 =A0is
> =A0 =A0 =A0> finished, and FA tags, unlike case endings, have no in= trinsic meaning
> =A0 =A0 =A0> apart from the selbri.
> =A0 =A0 =A0>
> =A0 =A0 =A0> Also, as I understand it, the FA tags are meant to pro= vide the
> =A0 =A0 =A0facility to
> =A0 =A0 =A0> reorder sentences when it is convenient, e.g. {mi klam= a fu lo karce},
> =A0 =A0 =A0not
> =A0 =A0 =A0> to allow arbitrary re-orderings; that's what BAI c= an be for. A
> =A0 =A0 =A0somewhat
> =A0 =A0 =A0> contrived example: {kla la .suzyn. xekla lo karce tekl= a la .berlin.
> =A0 =A0 =A0sekla
> =A0 =A0 =A0> la .paris. co'e}
> =A0 =A0 =A0>
> =A0 =A0 =A0> On Tue, Apr 5, 2011 at 11:36 AM, Joel T.
> =A0 =A0 =A0<[1][2]joelofarabia@gmail.com>
> =A0 =A0 =A0> wrote:
> =A0 =A0 =A0>
> =A0 =A0 =A0> OK, fair enough. I hope my comments didn't seem ov= erly dogmatic. If
> =A0 =A0 =A0> indeed as you say all these elements are indispensable= then I am
> =A0 =A0 =A0> wrong, and as I said in my original post, I couldn'= ;t be happier!
> =A0 =A0 =A0>
> =A0 =A0 =A0> In that case it would be like me saying that English i= s flawed because
> =A0 =A0 =A0> you can remove all the words of French origin and you&= #39;d still have a
> =A0 =A0 =A0> complete language. The premise is correct, but the ine= rtia of current
> =A0 =A0 =A0> usage means that this will never happen. I just never = thought that
> =A0 =A0 =A0> such variety could be present in the grammar of a lang= uage and not
> =A0 =A0 =A0> just the vocabulary.
> =A0 =A0 =A0>
> =A0 =A0 =A0> I suppose I should have really started by giving an ex= ample. In
> =A0 =A0 =A0> Chapter 2 of Lojban for Beginners
> =A0 =A0 =A0([2][3]http://www.tlg.uci.edu/~opoudjis/
> =A0 =A0 =A0> lojbanbrochure/lessons/less2changepl= aces.html), if I have understood
> =A0 =A0 =A0> correctly it basically tells me that if I feel like it= I can say (and
> =A0 =A0 =A0> therefore have to be able to understand):
> =A0 =A0 =A0>
> =A0 =A0 =A0> la suzyn. klama la paris. la berlin. zo'e le karce= (English structure)
> =A0 =A0 =A0>
> =A0 =A0 =A0> and
> =A0 =A0 =A0>
> =A0 =A0 =A0> la suzyn. fu le karce fi la berlin. fe la paris. klama= (Turkish
> =A0 =A0 =A0> structure)
> =A0 =A0 =A0>
> =A0 =A0 =A0> You can imagine how hard it is for native English spea= kers to get used
> =A0 =A0 =A0> to Turkish sentence structure, in fact my parents neve= r quite did. At
> =A0 =A0 =A0> least in Turkish when you change the structure of a se= ntence you do it
> =A0 =A0 =A0> for a reason, like emphasis. But Lojban expects me to = be able to adapt
> =A0 =A0 =A0> mid-paragraph for somebody who uses any and all possib= le sentence
> =A0 =A0 =A0> structures on a whim! My brain would flip!
> =A0 =A0 =A0>
> =A0 =A0 =A0> Everything I know about language tells me that people = get used to
> =A0 =A0 =A0> expressing themselves according to specific structures= . Which is why I
> =A0 =A0 =A0> arrived at the conclusion that any population of fluen= t Lojban
> =A0 =A0 =A0> speakers would very quickly get used to ordering certa= in sentences in
> =A0 =A0 =A0> certain ways instead of constantly mixing up their gra= mmar, which
> =A0 =A0 =A0> requires conscious thought.
> =A0 =A0 =A0>
> =A0 =A0 =A0> Again, please do correct me if I'm wrong, and I ge= t the feeling I
> =A0 =A0 =A0> probably am. I would like to thank everybody who has r= eplied to my
> =A0 =A0 =A0> original post for taking it in the spirit intended. Yo= u have all
> =A0 =A0 =A0> encouraged me to take a closer look at Lojban!
> =A0 =A0 =A0> On Apr 5, 5:22= pm, Luke Bergen <[3][4]lukeabe= r...@gmail.com> wrote:
> =A0 =A0 =A0> > Yeah Joel, I think what you're missing at thi= s early stage in your
> =A0 =A0 =A0> learning
> =A0 =A0 =A0> > is that both FA *and* knowing the place structure= s are extremely
> =A0 =A0 =A0> important
> =A0 =A0 =A0> > if you want to be fluent.
> =A0 =A0 =A0> >
> =A0 =A0 =A0> > I understand your concerns. You agreed that I was= representing your
> =A0 =A0 =A0> > argument accurately. What you may have misunderst= ood was that my
> =A0 =A0 =A0last
> =A0 =A0 =A0> > paragraph about "if one group of people like= d the place
> =A0 =A0 =A0structure....
> =A0 =A0 =A0> been
> =A0 =A0 =A0> > dropped out of the language by this group)" = was mildly sarcastic.
> =A0 =A0 =A0> >
> =A0 =A0 =A0> > The idea of a group of people using lojban and si= mply
> =A0 =A0 =A0> forgetting/dropping FA
> =A0 =A0 =A0> > and/or the default place structure of the gismu i= s completely
> =A0 =A0 =A0absurd.
> =A0 =A0 =A0> It
> =A0 =A0 =A0> > could happen, but it would take (my guess) centur= ies of shifting for
> =A0 =A0 =A0> that to
> =A0 =A0 =A0> > happen. It's so fundamental to a proper under= standing of the
> =A0 =A0 =A0language
> =A0 =A0 =A0> that
> =A0 =A0 =A0> > if anyone dropped FA or began forgetting the plac= e structures, I
> =A0 =A0 =A0would
> =A0 =A0 =A0> argue
> =A0 =A0 =A0> > that it was darn-near a completely different lang= uage.
> =A0 =A0 =A0> >
> =A0 =A0 =A0> > I'd put it on par with English switching to a= system more like what
> =A0 =A0 =A0> they
> =A0 =A0 =A0> > have in Turkey (as you describe it). Such a thing= would be (at best)
> =A0 =A0 =A0> an
> =A0 =A0 =A0> > extremely bastardized version of English. Likewis= e, lojban without
> =A0 =A0 =A0FA
> =A0 =A0 =A0> would
> =A0 =A0 =A0> > be quite a stretch.
> =A0 =A0 =A0> >
> =A0 =A0 =A0> > On Tue, Apr 5, 2011 at 6:17 AM, Joel T.
> =A0 =A0 =A0<[4][5]joelofara...@gmail.com>
> =A0 =A0 =A0> wrote:
> =A0 =A0 =A0> > > That was my point exactly. True fluency mean= s completely
> =A0 =A0 =A0> internalizing
> =A0 =A0 =A0> > > a language so that the words just flow out o= f your mouth without
> =A0 =A0 =A0> > > thinking. You're completely "out of= the book" to use a chess
> =A0 =A0 =A0> > > expression. And a community of truly fluent = people would be
> =A0 =A0 =A0> influenced
> =A0 =A0 =A0> > > more by each other than any conscious though= t given to the
> =A0 =A0 =A0official
> =A0 =A0 =A0> > > rules of grammar. A true Sapir-Whorf test wo= uld demand nothing
> =A0 =A0 =A0less.
> =A0 =A0 =A0> >
> =A0 =A0 =A0> > > The point I'm making about running two s= ystems side-by-side is
> =A0 =A0 =A0that
> =A0 =A0 =A0> in
> =A0 =A0 =A0> > > any community of truly fluent people, either= one of them would get
> =A0 =A0 =A0> > > phased out, or they would diverge in meaning= , usage, connotation
> =A0 =A0 =A0> etc.
> =A0 =A0 =A0> > > At the very least it would become a way of d= ifferentiating between
> =A0 =A0 =A0> > > cliques, which is the thin end of the wedge = for dialectisation.
> =A0 =A0 =A0You
> =A0 =A0 =A0> > > just can't have two ways of doing exactl= y the same thing with only
> =A0 =A0 =A0> > > whim to choose between them. It's great = in class, but in the field
> =A0 =A0 =A0> > > it's not tenable. It's not how langu= age works.
> =A0 =A0 =A0> >
> =A0 =A0 =A0> > > On Apr 4, 10:04 pm, Luke Bergen <[5= ][6]lukeaber...@gmail.com><= br>
> =A0 =A0 =A0wrote:
> =A0 =A0 =A0> > > > I think his point was that these dialec= tic splits could result
> =A0 =A0 =A0in
> =A0 =A0 =A0> two
> =A0 =A0 =A0> > > groups
> =A0 =A0 =A0> > > > of people not being able to understand = one another.
> =A0 =A0 =A0> >
> =A0 =A0 =A0> > > > If one group of people liked using the = place structure so much
> =A0 =A0 =A0> that they
> =A0 =A0 =A0> > > > just ignored FA what would happen if th= ey saw something like {fi
> =A0 =A0 =A0> lo zdani
> =A0 =A0 =A0> > > cu
> =A0 =A0 =A0> > > > klama fa mi lo zarci} and got completel= y confused (you know, cuz
> =A0 =A0 =A0> > > generations
> =A0 =A0 =A0> > > > later FA would have basically been drop= ped out of the language
> =A0 =A0 =A0by
> =A0 =A0 =A0> this
> =A0 =A0 =A0> > > > group).
> =A0 =A0 =A0> >
> =A0 =A0 =A0> > > > On Mon, Apr 4, 2011 at 2:35 PM, Michael= Turniansky <
> =A0 =A0 =A0> > > [6][7]mturnian...@gmail.com>wrote:
> =A0 =A0 =A0> >
> =A0 =A0 =A0> > > > > On Sun, Apr 3, 2011 at 8:08 PM, Jo= el T.
> =A0 =A0 =A0> <[7][8]joelofara...@gmail.com>
> =A0 =A0 =A0> > > wrote:
> =A0 =A0 =A0> >
> =A0 =A0 =A0> > > > >> In any case, surely running tw= o systems side-by-side is
> =A0 =A0 =A0asking
> =A0 =A0 =A0> for
> =A0 =A0 =A0> > > > >> dialectisation (is that a word= ?), where speakers in one area
> =A0 =A0 =A0> get used
> =A0 =A0 =A0> > > > >> to one system while speakers i= n another prefer the other?
> =A0 =A0 =A0> >
> =A0 =A0 =A0> > > > > It can, and does. But we consider = the flexibility to be a
> =A0 =A0 =A0plus.
> =A0 =A0 =A0> > > That
> =A0 =A0 =A0> > > > > way, any person coming from a natu= ral language background of
> =A0 =A0 =A0> say,
> =A0 =A0 =A0> > > Turkish,
> =A0 =A0 =A0> > > > > can from sentences the way that se= ems most natural to them,
> =A0 =A0 =A0> while
> =A0 =A0 =A0> > > someone
> =A0 =A0 =A0> > > > > coming from an English background = can form setnences the most
> =A0 =A0 =A0> natural
> =A0 =A0 =A0> > > way to
> =A0 =A0 =A0> > > > > them. And both will be understood = equally well. We had, for
> =A0 =A0 =A0> example,
> =A0 =A0 =A0> > > a
> =A0 =A0 =A0> > > > > while a back, a discussion over wh= ich was "better": to use
> =A0 =A0 =A0"cu"
> =A0 =A0 =A0> often,
> =A0 =A0 =A0> > > or to
> =A0 =A0 =A0> > > > > totally eschew it in favor of sumt= i that are competely
> =A0 =A0 =A0> terminated so
> =A0 =A0 =A0> > > that
> =A0 =A0 =A0> > > > > there was no need for it (i.e. &qu= ot;lo gerku cu barda" vs. "lo
> =A0 =A0 =A0gerku
> =A0 =A0 =A0> ku
> =A0 =A0 =A0> > > > > barda"). There are vocal prop= onents on each side, so it
> =A0 =A0 =A0amounts
> =A0 =A0 =A0> to a
> =A0 =A0 =A0> > > > > dialectical split, but.. so what?<= br> > =A0 =A0 =A0> > > > > --gejyspa
> =A0 =A0 =A0> >
> =A0 =A0 =A0> > > > > --
> =A0 =A0 =A0> > > > > You received this message because = you are subscribed to the
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> =A0 =A0 =A0> > > > > "lojban" group.
> =A0 =A0 =A0> > > > > To post to this group, send email = to
> =A0 =A0 =A0[8][9]lojban@googlegroups.com.
> =A0 =A0 =A0> > > > > To unsubscribe f= rom this group, send email to
> =A0 =A0 =A0> > > > > [9][10]lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com= .
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> =A0 =A0 =A0> > > > >[10][11]http://groups.google= .com/group/lojban?hl=3Den.
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> =A0 =A0 =A0> --
> =A0 =A0 =A0> mu'o mi'e .arpis.
> =A0 =A0 =A0>
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> =A0 =A0 =A0>
> =A0 =A0 =A0> References
> =A0 =A0 =A0>
> =A0 =A0 =A0> Visible links
> =A0 =A0 =A0> 1. mailto:[21]joelofarabia@gmail.com
> =A0 =A0 =A0> 2.
> =A0 =A0 =A0[22]http://www.tlg.u= ci.edu/%7Eopoudjis/%0Alojbanbrochure/lessons/less2changeplaces.html
> =A0 =A0 =A0> 3. mailto:[23]lukeaber...@gmail.com
> =A0 =A0 =A0> 4. mailto:[24]joelofara...@gmail.com
> =A0 =A0 =A0> 5. mailto:[25]lukeaber...@gmail.com
> =A0 =A0 =A0> 6. mailto:[26]mturnian...@gmail.com
> =A0 =A0 =A0> 7. mailto:[27]joelofara...@gmail.com
> =A0 =A0 =A0> 8. mailto:[28]lojban@googlegroups.com
> =A0 =A0 =A0> 9. mailto:[29]lojban%2Bunsubscribe@googlegroups.com
> =A0 =A0 =A0> 10. [30]http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den=
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> =A0 =A0 =A0> 12. mailto:[32]lojban%2Bunsubscribe@googlegroups.com
> =A0 =A0 =A0> 13. [33]http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den=
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> =A0 =A0 =A0> 16. [36]http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den=
> =A0 =A0 =A0--
> =A0 =A0 =A0.i ma'a lo bradi ku penmi gi'e du
>
> =A0 =A0 =A0--
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>
> =A0 =A0--
> =A0 =A0Alex R
>
> =A0 =A0--
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>
> References
>
> =A0 =A0Visible links
> =A0 =A01. mailto:alyn.post@lodockikumazvati.org
> =A0 =A02. mailto:joelofarabia@gmail.com
> =A0 =A03. http://www.tlg.uci.edu/%7Eopoudjis/
> =A0 =A04. mailto:lukeab= er...@gmail.com
> =A0 =A05. mailto:joelofara..= .@gmail.com
> =A0 =A06. mailto:lukeaber...@= gmail.com
> =A0 =A07. mailto:mturnian...@= gmail.com
> =A0 =A08. mailto:joelofara..= .@gmail.com
> =A0 =A09. mailto:lojban@goo= glegroups.com
> =A0 10. mailto:lojban%2Bunsubscribe@googlegroups.com
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> =A0 20. http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den
> =A0 21. mailto:joelofarabia@= gmail.com
> =A0 22. http://www.tlg.uci.edu/= %7Eopoudjis/%0Alojbanbrochure/lessons/less2changeplaces.html
> =A0 23. mailto:lukeaber...@gm= ail.com
> =A0 24. mailto:joelofara...@= gmail.com
> =A0 25. mailto:lukeaber...@gm= ail.com
> =A0 26. mailto:mturnian...@gm= ail.com
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=A0=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0Alex R

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