From lojban+bncCOjSjrXVGBDg0O3sBBoEoZSioQ@googlegroups.com Tue Apr 05 12:07:36 2011 Received: from mail-yi0-f61.google.com ([209.85.218.61]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1Q7Bb4-0005Kt-Aq; Tue, 05 Apr 2011 12:07:36 -0700 Received: by yie19 with SMTP id 19sf1362395yie.16 for ; Tue, 05 Apr 2011 12:07:18 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version :in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:x-google-group-id:list-post :list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe :content-type; bh=0dJ6IsseX8jAVLbAM4FSE5k8FiQx0EgMJWwtCmeqSWk=; b=11dMh9VDyF6nXypUkplmchU2651Kjzq8I8HUag5R7SEKNVVub+ie+B0PVIuKbcGbBc 5fSglkivgVbDwkPwN+eexTxVSCXKoyg3alpIPy3JSZKFWeLKO2Lh7rvmhX35j7sPy9Ao 2KB3i5vjO8E5mEqtKSVCIlcp9FGXhhjrJbKD0= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from :date:message-id:subject:to:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:x-google-group-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender :list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; b=DW+IozeISCDZMc0sxUxZB3hH/nMaqvyQYbADwfagkhZ7wbEcuKhevOjOdGyahd+RKP Ebc3VCZJleGu3Ixy+rUY0yA6GUpKvM6Ju6hWbvRXvq2jgy4rC+GhppXwnatzhZDADelD 25cvonkCUuosL9OiiQGuemJW8KjyP8bHx3Wy0= Received: by 10.151.50.13 with SMTP id c13mr222089ybk.50.1302030432361; Tue, 05 Apr 2011 12:07:12 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.231.1.79 with SMTP id 15ls114193ibe.0.p; Tue, 05 Apr 2011 12:07:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.43.44.74 with SMTP id uf10mr6055icb.41.1302030431429; Tue, 05 Apr 2011 12:07:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.43.44.74 with SMTP id uf10mr6054icb.41.1302030431360; Tue, 05 Apr 2011 12:07:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-iw0-f180.google.com (mail-iw0-f180.google.com [209.85.214.180]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id wr7si1096321icb.6.2011.04.05.12.07.11 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Tue, 05 Apr 2011 12:07:11 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of lukeabergen@gmail.com designates 209.85.214.180 as permitted sender) client-ip=209.85.214.180; Received: by iwn6 with SMTP id 6so965326iwn.39 for ; Tue, 05 Apr 2011 12:07:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.231.66.207 with SMTP id o15mr64712ibi.4.1302030431138; Tue, 05 Apr 2011 12:07:11 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.231.37.10 with HTTP; Tue, 5 Apr 2011 12:06:51 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: <0a74da06-07cf-4b52-a329-ed0ebbae2f5b@u8g2000yqh.googlegroups.com> <20110405163732.GA11417@alice.local> <20110405183621.GB11417@alice.local> From: Luke Bergen Date: Tue, 5 Apr 2011 15:06:51 -0400 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban] Re: I love Lojban's approach, but what's the deal with place tags? To: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Original-Sender: lukeabergen@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of lukeabergen@gmail.com designates 209.85.214.180 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=lukeabergen@gmail.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=0015176f09fa55b30a04a03095ba --0015176f09fa55b30a04a03095ba Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 .yyy <> goi ko'a cu simsa < goi ko'e .iku'i milxe frica .i ko'a frica ko'e lo ka zoi gy emphasis gy .i pe'i simsa lo frica be fa <> bei <> On Tue, Apr 5, 2011 at 3:00 PM, Alex Rozenshteyn wrote: > na xu se jetnu lo du'u <> > <> dunli lo smuni > > > On Tue, Apr 5, 2011 at 2:36 PM, .alyn.post. < > alyn.post@lodockikumazvati.org> wrote: > >> .i o'onai ke'a si ko'a >> >> .i mi fanva lu ko xu li'u fu zoi .gy. "is it true that you will make >> it true?" .gy. .a zoi .gy. "Can you make it true?" .gy. >> >> .i mi na jimpe lo nu cusku ko'a va'o lo selma'o be su'o zo fa to zoi >> .fanva. I can't say my example sentence without using FA .fanva. toi >> >> .i ki'edo'u mi ca me lo jimpe poi do xusra >> >> .i mu'o mi'e .alyn. >> >> On Tue, Apr 05, 2011 at 01:59:21PM -0400, Alex Rozenshteyn wrote: >> > doi .alan.post. >> > >> > ki'a ru'e .i na jimpe fi zo ko joi zo xu gi'e na jimpe fi lo mukti >> do'e zo >> > ke'a >> > >> > ni'o >> > mi na pu cusku lo du'u va'o ro zo'e na pilno lo selma'o zo fa .i ku'i >> > cusku lo du'u va'o lo na'e sarcu ku na pilno >> > >> > (I'm not quite sure what you meant by using "ko" and "xu" together, >> and >> > I'm not sure why you used "ke'a" >> > >> > I didn't say never to use FA; I said that they shouldn't be used when >> not >> > necessary.) >> > >> > On Tue, Apr 5, 2011 at 12:37 PM, .alyn.post. >> > <[1]alyn.post@lodockikumazvati.org> wrote: >> > >> > doi .arpis. >> > >> > .i ko xu ba cusku ke'a goi lu .i mi djica lo za'i ponse fa do lo >> rokci >> > li'u >> > poi na pilno zo fa .i mi na jimpe lo cusku be ke'a >> > .i mu'o mi'e .alyn. >> > >> > On Tue, Apr 05, 2011 at 12:01:05PM -0400, .arpis. wrote: >> > > I'm biased, but I find the English structure to be more >> understandable >> > and >> > > natural, and not only because I speak English. >> > > >> > > The selbri comes early in the sentence, allowing the listener to >> start >> > > understanding the relationships between the sumti before the >> sentence >> > is >> > > finished, and FA tags, unlike case endings, have no intrinsic >> meaning >> > > apart from the selbri. >> > > >> > > Also, as I understand it, the FA tags are meant to provide the >> > facility to >> > > reorder sentences when it is convenient, e.g. {mi klama fu lo >> karce}, >> > not >> > > to allow arbitrary re-orderings; that's what BAI can be for. A >> > somewhat >> > > contrived example: {kla la .suzyn. xekla lo karce tekla la >> .berlin. >> > sekla >> > > la .paris. co'e} >> > > >> > > On Tue, Apr 5, 2011 at 11:36 AM, Joel T. >> > <[1][2]joelofarabia@gmail.com> >> > > wrote: >> > > >> > > OK, fair enough. I hope my comments didn't seem overly dogmatic. >> If >> > > indeed as you say all these elements are indispensable then I am >> > > wrong, and as I said in my original post, I couldn't be happier! >> > > >> > > In that case it would be like me saying that English is flawed >> because >> > > you can remove all the words of French origin and you'd still >> have a >> > > complete language. The premise is correct, but the inertia of >> current >> > > usage means that this will never happen. I just never thought >> that >> > > such variety could be present in the grammar of a language and >> not >> > > just the vocabulary. >> > > >> > > I suppose I should have really started by giving an example. In >> > > Chapter 2 of Lojban for Beginners >> > ([2][3]http://www.tlg.uci.edu/~opoudjis/ >> > > lojbanbrochure/lessons/less2changeplaces.html), if I have >> understood >> > > correctly it basically tells me that if I feel like it I can say >> (and >> > > therefore have to be able to understand): >> > > >> > > la suzyn. klama la paris. la berlin. zo'e le karce (English >> structure) >> > > >> > > and >> > > >> > > la suzyn. fu le karce fi la berlin. fe la paris. klama (Turkish >> > > structure) >> > > >> > > You can imagine how hard it is for native English speakers to get >> used >> > > to Turkish sentence structure, in fact my parents never quite >> did. At >> > > least in Turkish when you change the structure of a sentence you >> do it >> > > for a reason, like emphasis. But Lojban expects me to be able to >> adapt >> > > mid-paragraph for somebody who uses any and all possible sentence >> > > structures on a whim! My brain would flip! >> > > >> > > Everything I know about language tells me that people get used to >> > > expressing themselves according to specific structures. Which is >> why I >> > > arrived at the conclusion that any population of fluent Lojban >> > > speakers would very quickly get used to ordering certain >> sentences in >> > > certain ways instead of constantly mixing up their grammar, which >> > > requires conscious thought. >> > > >> > > Again, please do correct me if I'm wrong, and I get the feeling I >> > > probably am. I would like to thank everybody who has replied to >> my >> > > original post for taking it in the spirit intended. You have all >> > > encouraged me to take a closer look at Lojban! >> > > On Apr 5, 5:22 pm, Luke Bergen <[3][4]lukeaber...@gmail.com> >> wrote: >> > > > Yeah Joel, I think what you're missing at this early stage in >> your >> > > learning >> > > > is that both FA *and* knowing the place structures are >> extremely >> > > important >> > > > if you want to be fluent. >> > > > >> > > > I understand your concerns. You agreed that I was representing >> your >> > > > argument accurately. What you may have misunderstood was that >> my >> > last >> > > > paragraph about "if one group of people liked the place >> > structure.... >> > > been >> > > > dropped out of the language by this group)" was mildly >> sarcastic. >> > > > >> > > > The idea of a group of people using lojban and simply >> > > forgetting/dropping FA >> > > > and/or the default place structure of the gismu is completely >> > absurd. >> > > It >> > > > could happen, but it would take (my guess) centuries of >> shifting for >> > > that to >> > > > happen. It's so fundamental to a proper understanding of the >> > language >> > > that >> > > > if anyone dropped FA or began forgetting the place structures, >> I >> > would >> > > argue >> > > > that it was darn-near a completely different language. >> > > > >> > > > I'd put it on par with English switching to a system more like >> what >> > > they >> > > > have in Turkey (as you describe it). Such a thing would be (at >> best) >> > > an >> > > > extremely bastardized version of English. Likewise, lojban >> without >> > FA >> > > would >> > > > be quite a stretch. >> > > > >> > > > On Tue, Apr 5, 2011 at 6:17 AM, Joel T. >> > <[4][5]joelofara...@gmail.com> >> > > wrote: >> > > > > That was my point exactly. True fluency means completely >> > > internalizing >> > > > > a language so that the words just flow out of your mouth >> without >> > > > > thinking. You're completely "out of the book" to use a chess >> > > > > expression. And a community of truly fluent people would be >> > > influenced >> > > > > more by each other than any conscious thought given to the >> > official >> > > > > rules of grammar. A true Sapir-Whorf test would demand >> nothing >> > less. >> > > > >> > > > > The point I'm making about running two systems side-by-side >> is >> > that >> > > in >> > > > > any community of truly fluent people, either one of them >> would get >> > > > > phased out, or they would diverge in meaning, usage, >> connotation >> > > etc. >> > > > > At the very least it would become a way of differentiating >> between >> > > > > cliques, which is the thin end of the wedge for >> dialectisation. >> > You >> > > > > just can't have two ways of doing exactly the same thing with >> only >> > > > > whim to choose between them. It's great in class, but in the >> field >> > > > > it's not tenable. It's not how language works. >> > > > >> > > > > On Apr 4, 10:04 pm, Luke Bergen <[5][6]lukeaber...@gmail.com >> > >> > wrote: >> > > > > > I think his point was that these dialectic splits could >> result >> > in >> > > two >> > > > > groups >> > > > > > of people not being able to understand one another. >> > > > >> > > > > > If one group of people liked using the place structure so >> much >> > > that they >> > > > > > just ignored FA what would happen if they saw something >> like {fi >> > > lo zdani >> > > > > cu >> > > > > > klama fa mi lo zarci} and got completely confused (you >> know, cuz >> > > > > generations >> > > > > > later FA would have basically been dropped out of the >> language >> > by >> > > this >> > > > > > group). >> > > > >> > > > > > On Mon, Apr 4, 2011 at 2:35 PM, Michael Turniansky < >> > > > > [6][7]mturnian...@gmail.com>wrote: >> > > > >> > > > > > > On Sun, Apr 3, 2011 at 8:08 PM, Joel T. >> > > <[7][8]joelofara...@gmail.com> >> > > > > wrote: >> > > > >> > > > > > >> In any case, surely running two systems side-by-side is >> > asking >> > > for >> > > > > > >> dialectisation (is that a word?), where speakers in one >> area >> > > get used >> > > > > > >> to one system while speakers in another prefer the >> other? >> > > > >> > > > > > > It can, and does. But we consider the flexibility to be a >> > plus. >> > > > > That >> > > > > > > way, any person coming from a natural language background >> of >> > > say, >> > > > > Turkish, >> > > > > > > can from sentences the way that seems most natural to >> them, >> > > while >> > > > > someone >> > > > > > > coming from an English background can form setnences the >> most >> > > natural >> > > > > way to >> > > > > > > them. And both will be understood equally well. We had, >> for >> > > example, >> > > > > a >> > > > > > > while a back, a discussion over which was "better": to >> use >> > "cu" >> > > often, >> > > > > or to >> > > > > > > totally eschew it in favor of sumti that are competely >> > > terminated so >> > > > > that >> > > > > > > there was no need for it (i.e. "lo gerku cu barda" vs. >> "lo >> > gerku >> > > ku >> > > > > > > barda"). There are vocal proponents on each side, so it >> > amounts >> > > to a >> > > > > > > dialectical split, but.. so what? >> > > > > > > --gejyspa >> > > > >> > > > > > > -- >> > > > > > > You received this message because you are subscribed to >> the >> > > Google >> > > > > Groups >> > > > > > > "lojban" group. >> > > > > > > To post to this group, send email to >> > [8][9]lojban@googlegroups.com. >> > > > > > > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >> > > > > > > [9][10]lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. >> > > > > > > For more options, visit this group at >> > > > > > >[10][11]http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. >> > > > >> > > > > -- >> > > > > You received this message because you are subscribed to the >> Google >> > > Groups >> > > > > "lojban" group. >> > > > > To post to this group, send email to >> > [11][12]lojban@googlegroups.com. >> > > > > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >> > > > > [12][13]lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. >> > > > > For more options, visit this group at >> > > > >[13][14]http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. >> > > >> > > -- >> > > You received this message because you are subscribed to the >> Google >> > > Groups "lojban" group. >> > > To post to this group, send email to [14][15] >> lojban@googlegroups.com. >> > > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >> > > [15][16]lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. >> > > For more options, visit this group at >> > > [16][17]http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. >> > > >> > > -- >> > > mu'o mi'e .arpis. >> > > >> > > -- >> > > You received this message because you are subscribed to the >> Google >> > Groups >> > > "lojban" group. >> > > To post to this group, send email to [18]lojban@googlegroups.com >> . >> > > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >> > > [19]lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. >> > > For more options, visit this group at >> > > [20]http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. >> > > >> > > References >> > > >> > > Visible links >> > > 1. mailto:[21]joelofarabia@gmail.com >> > > 2. >> > [22] >> http://www.tlg.uci.edu/%7Eopoudjis/%0Alojbanbrochure/lessons/less2changeplaces.html >> > > 3. mailto:[23]lukeaber...@gmail.com >> > > 4. mailto:[24]joelofara...@gmail.com >> > > 5. mailto:[25]lukeaber...@gmail.com >> > > 6. mailto:[26]mturnian...@gmail.com >> > > 7. mailto:[27]joelofara...@gmail.com >> > > 8. mailto:[28]lojban@googlegroups.com >> > > 9. mailto:[29]lojban%2Bunsubscribe@googlegroups.com >> > > 10. [30]http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en >> > > 11. mailto:[31]lojban@googlegroups.com >> > > 12. mailto:[32]lojban%2Bunsubscribe@googlegroups.com >> > > 13. [33]http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en >> > > 14. mailto:[34]lojban@googlegroups.com >> > > 15. mailto:[35]lojban%2Bunsubscribe@googlegroups.com >> > > 16. [36]http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en >> > -- >> > .i ma'a lo bradi ku penmi gi'e du >> > >> > -- >> > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >> > Groups "lojban" group. >> > To post to this group, send email to [37]lojban@googlegroups.com. >> > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >> > [38]lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. >> > For more options, visit this group at >> > [39]http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. >> > >> > -- >> > Alex R >> > >> > -- >> > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >> Groups >> > "lojban" group. >> > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. >> > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >> > lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. >> > For more options, visit this group at >> > http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. >> > >> > References >> > >> > Visible links >> > 1. mailto:alyn.post@lodockikumazvati.org >> > 2. mailto:joelofarabia@gmail.com >> > 3. http://www.tlg.uci.edu/%7Eopoudjis/ >> > 4. mailto:lukeaber...@gmail.com >> > 5. mailto:joelofara...@gmail.com >> > 6. mailto:lukeaber...@gmail.com >> > 7. mailto:mturnian...@gmail.com >> > 8. mailto:joelofara...@gmail.com >> > 9. mailto:lojban@googlegroups.com >> > 10. mailto:lojban%2Bunsubscribe@googlegroups.com >> > 11. http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en >> > 12. mailto:lojban@googlegroups.com >> > 13. mailto:lojban%2Bunsubscribe@googlegroups.com >> > 14. http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en >> > 15. mailto:lojban@googlegroups.com >> > 16. mailto:lojban%2Bunsubscribe@googlegroups.com >> > 17. http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en >> > 18. mailto:lojban@googlegroups.com >> > 19. mailto:lojban%2Bunsubscribe@googlegroups.com >> > 20. http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en >> > 21. mailto:joelofarabia@gmail.com >> > 22. >> http://www.tlg.uci.edu/%7Eopoudjis/%0Alojbanbrochure/lessons/less2changeplaces.html >> > 23. mailto:lukeaber...@gmail.com >> > 24. mailto:joelofara...@gmail.com >> > 25. mailto:lukeaber...@gmail.com >> > 26. mailto:mturnian...@gmail.com >> > 27. mailto:joelofara...@gmail.com >> > 28. mailto:lojban@googlegroups.com >> > 29. mailto:lojban%252Bunsubscribe@googlegroups.com >> > 30. http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en >> > 31. mailto:lojban@googlegroups.com >> > 32. mailto:lojban%252Bunsubscribe@googlegroups.com >> > 33. http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en >> > 34. mailto:lojban@googlegroups.com >> > 35. mailto:lojban%252Bunsubscribe@googlegroups.com >> > 36. http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en >> > 37. mailto:lojban@googlegroups.com >> > 38. mailto:lojban%2Bunsubscribe@googlegroups.com >> > 39. http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en >> >> -- >> .i ma'a lo bradi ku penmi gi'e du >> >> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >> "lojban" group. >> To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. >> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >> lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. >> For more options, visit this group at >> http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. >> >> > > > -- > Alex R > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "lojban" group. > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. --0015176f09fa55b30a04a03095ba Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable .yyy <<lu .i mi djica lo za'i ponse fa do lo rokci li'u>&g= t; goi ko'a cu simsa <<lu .i mi djica lo za'i do ponse lo rok= ci li'u> goi ko'e .iku'i milxe frica .i ko'a frica ko= 9;e lo ka zoi gy emphasis gy .i pe'i simsa lo frica be fa <<lu mi= nelci do li'u>> bei <<lu do se nelci mi li'u>>
On Tue, Apr 5, 2011 at 3:00 PM, Alex Rozensh= teyn <rpglover= 64@gmail.com> wrote:
na xu se jetnu lo du'u <<lu .i mi djica lo za'i ponse fa do l= o rokci li'u>> <<lu .i mi djica lo za'i do ponse lo rok= ci li'u>> dunli lo smuni


On Tue, Apr 5, 2011 at 2:36 PM, .alyn.post. <alyn.post@lodockikumazvati.org> wrote:
.i o'onai ke'a si ko'a

.i mi fanva lu ko xu li'u fu zoi .gy. "is it true that you will ma= ke
it true?" .gy. .a zoi .gy. "Can you make it true?" .gy.

.i mi na jimpe lo nu cusku ko'a va'o lo selma'o be su'o zo = fa to zoi
.fanva. I can't say my example sentence without using FA .fanva. toi
.i ki'edo'u mi ca me lo jimpe poi do xusra

.i mu'o mi'e .alyn.

On Tue, Apr 05, 2011 at 01:59:21PM -0400, Alex Rozenshteyn wrote= :
> =A0 =A0doi .alan.post.
>
> =A0 =A0ki'a ru'e .i na jimpe fi zo ko joi zo xu gi'e na ji= mpe fi lo mukti do'e zo
> =A0 =A0ke'a
>
> =A0 =A0ni'o
> =A0 =A0mi na pu cusku lo du'u va'o ro zo'e na pilno lo sel= ma'o zo fa .i ku'i
> =A0 =A0cusku lo du'u va'o lo na'e sarcu ku na pilno
>
> =A0 =A0(I'm not quite sure what you meant by using "ko" = and "xu" together, and
> =A0 =A0I'm not sure why you used "ke'a"
>
> =A0 =A0I didn't say never to use FA; I said that they shouldn'= t be used when not
> =A0 =A0necessary.)
>
> =A0 =A0On Tue, Apr 5, 2011 at 12:37 PM, .alyn.post.
> =A0 =A0<[1]alyn.post@lodockikumazvati.org&g= t; wrote:
>
> =A0 =A0 =A0doi .arpis.
>
> =A0 =A0 =A0.i ko xu ba cusku ke'a goi lu .i mi djica lo za'i p= onse fa do lo rokci
> =A0 =A0 =A0li'u
> =A0 =A0 =A0poi na pilno zo fa .i mi na jimpe lo cusku be ke'a
> =A0 =A0 =A0.i mu'o mi'e .alyn.
>
> =A0 =A0 =A0On Tue, Apr 05, 2011 at 12:01:05PM -0400, .arpis. wrote: > =A0 =A0 =A0> I'm biased, but I find the English structure to be= more understandable
> =A0 =A0 =A0and
> =A0 =A0 =A0> natural, and not only because I speak English.
> =A0 =A0 =A0>
> =A0 =A0 =A0> The selbri comes early in the sentence, allowing the l= istener to start
> =A0 =A0 =A0> understanding the relationships between the sumti befo= re the sentence
> =A0 =A0 =A0is
> =A0 =A0 =A0> finished, and FA tags, unlike case endings, have no in= trinsic meaning
> =A0 =A0 =A0> apart from the selbri.
> =A0 =A0 =A0>
> =A0 =A0 =A0> Also, as I understand it, the FA tags are meant to pro= vide the
> =A0 =A0 =A0facility to
> =A0 =A0 =A0> reorder sentences when it is convenient, e.g. {mi klam= a fu lo karce},
> =A0 =A0 =A0not
> =A0 =A0 =A0> to allow arbitrary re-orderings; that's what BAI c= an be for. A
> =A0 =A0 =A0somewhat
> =A0 =A0 =A0> contrived example: {kla la .suzyn. xekla lo karce tekl= a la .berlin.
> =A0 =A0 =A0sekla
> =A0 =A0 =A0> la .paris. co'e}
> =A0 =A0 =A0>
> =A0 =A0 =A0> On Tue, Apr 5, 2011 at 11:36 AM, Joel T.
> =A0 =A0 =A0<[1][2]joelofarabia@gmail.com>
> =A0 =A0 =A0> wrote:
> =A0 =A0 =A0>
> =A0 =A0 =A0> OK, fair enough. I hope my comments didn't seem ov= erly dogmatic. If
> =A0 =A0 =A0> indeed as you say all these elements are indispensable= then I am
> =A0 =A0 =A0> wrong, and as I said in my original post, I couldn'= ;t be happier!
> =A0 =A0 =A0>
> =A0 =A0 =A0> In that case it would be like me saying that English i= s flawed because
> =A0 =A0 =A0> you can remove all the words of French origin and you&= #39;d still have a
> =A0 =A0 =A0> complete language. The premise is correct, but the ine= rtia of current
> =A0 =A0 =A0> usage means that this will never happen. I just never = thought that
> =A0 =A0 =A0> such variety could be present in the grammar of a lang= uage and not
> =A0 =A0 =A0> just the vocabulary.
> =A0 =A0 =A0>
> =A0 =A0 =A0> I suppose I should have really started by giving an ex= ample. In
> =A0 =A0 =A0> Chapter 2 of Lojban for Beginners
> =A0 =A0 =A0([2][3]http://www.tlg.uci.edu/~opoudjis/
> =A0 =A0 =A0> lojbanbrochure/lessons/less2changeplaces.html), i= f I have understood
> =A0 =A0 =A0> correctly it basically tells me that if I feel like it= I can say (and
> =A0 =A0 =A0> therefore have to be able to understand):
> =A0 =A0 =A0>
> =A0 =A0 =A0> la suzyn. klama la paris. la berlin. zo'e le karce= (English structure)
> =A0 =A0 =A0>
> =A0 =A0 =A0> and
> =A0 =A0 =A0>
> =A0 =A0 =A0> la suzyn. fu le karce fi la berlin. fe la paris. klama= (Turkish
> =A0 =A0 =A0> structure)
> =A0 =A0 =A0>
> =A0 =A0 =A0> You can imagine how hard it is for native English spea= kers to get used
> =A0 =A0 =A0> to Turkish sentence structure, in fact my parents neve= r quite did. At
> =A0 =A0 =A0> least in Turkish when you change the structure of a se= ntence you do it
> =A0 =A0 =A0> for a reason, like emphasis. But Lojban expects me to = be able to adapt
> =A0 =A0 =A0> mid-paragraph for somebody who uses any and all possib= le sentence
> =A0 =A0 =A0> structures on a whim! My brain would flip!
> =A0 =A0 =A0>
> =A0 =A0 =A0> Everything I know about language tells me that people = get used to
> =A0 =A0 =A0> expressing themselves according to specific structures= . Which is why I
> =A0 =A0 =A0> arrived at the conclusion that any population of fluen= t Lojban
> =A0 =A0 =A0> speakers would very quickly get used to ordering certa= in sentences in
> =A0 =A0 =A0> certain ways instead of constantly mixing up their gra= mmar, which
> =A0 =A0 =A0> requires conscious thought.
> =A0 =A0 =A0>
> =A0 =A0 =A0> Again, please do correct me if I'm wrong, and I ge= t the feeling I
> =A0 =A0 =A0> probably am. I would like to thank everybody who has r= eplied to my
> =A0 =A0 =A0> original post for taking it in the spirit intended. Yo= u have all
> =A0 =A0 =A0> encouraged me to take a closer look at Lojban!
> =A0 =A0 =A0> On Apr 5, 5:22 pm, Luke Ber= gen <[3][4]lu= keaber...@gmail.com> wrote:
> =A0 =A0 =A0> > Yeah Joel, I think what you're missing at thi= s early stage in your
> =A0 =A0 =A0> learning
> =A0 =A0 =A0> > is that both FA *and* knowing the place structure= s are extremely
> =A0 =A0 =A0> important
> =A0 =A0 =A0> > if you want to be fluent.
> =A0 =A0 =A0> >
> =A0 =A0 =A0> > I understand your concerns. You agreed that I was= representing your
> =A0 =A0 =A0> > argument accurately. What you may have misunderst= ood was that my
> =A0 =A0 =A0last
> =A0 =A0 =A0> > paragraph about "if one group of people like= d the place
> =A0 =A0 =A0structure....
> =A0 =A0 =A0> been
> =A0 =A0 =A0> > dropped out of the language by this group)" = was mildly sarcastic.
> =A0 =A0 =A0> >
> =A0 =A0 =A0> > The idea of a group of people using lojban and si= mply
> =A0 =A0 =A0> forgetting/dropping FA
> =A0 =A0 =A0> > and/or the default place structure of the gismu i= s completely
> =A0 =A0 =A0absurd.
> =A0 =A0 =A0> It
> =A0 =A0 =A0> > could happen, but it would take (my guess) centur= ies of shifting for
> =A0 =A0 =A0> that to
> =A0 =A0 =A0> > happen. It's so fundamental to a proper under= standing of the
> =A0 =A0 =A0language
> =A0 =A0 =A0> that
> =A0 =A0 =A0> > if anyone dropped FA or began forgetting the plac= e structures, I
> =A0 =A0 =A0would
> =A0 =A0 =A0> argue
> =A0 =A0 =A0> > that it was darn-near a completely different lang= uage.
> =A0 =A0 =A0> >
> =A0 =A0 =A0> > I'd put it on par with English switching to a= system more like what
> =A0 =A0 =A0> they
> =A0 =A0 =A0> > have in Turkey (as you describe it). Such a thing= would be (at best)
> =A0 =A0 =A0> an
> =A0 =A0 =A0> > extremely bastardized version of English. Likewis= e, lojban without
> =A0 =A0 =A0FA
> =A0 =A0 =A0> would
> =A0 =A0 =A0> > be quite a stretch.
> =A0 =A0 =A0> >
> =A0 =A0 =A0> > On Tue, Apr 5, 2011 at 6:17 AM, Joel T.
> =A0 =A0 =A0<[4][5]joelofara...@gmail.com>
> =A0 =A0 =A0> wrote:
> =A0 =A0 =A0> > > That was my point exactly. True fluency mean= s completely
> =A0 =A0 =A0> internalizing
> =A0 =A0 =A0> > > a language so that the words just flow out o= f your mouth without
> =A0 =A0 =A0> > > thinking. You're completely "out of= the book" to use a chess
> =A0 =A0 =A0> > > expression. And a community of truly fluent = people would be
> =A0 =A0 =A0> influenced
> =A0 =A0 =A0> > > more by each other than any conscious though= t given to the
> =A0 =A0 =A0official
> =A0 =A0 =A0> > > rules of grammar. A true Sapir-Whorf test wo= uld demand nothing
> =A0 =A0 =A0less.
> =A0 =A0 =A0> >
> =A0 =A0 =A0> > > The point I'm making about running two s= ystems side-by-side is
> =A0 =A0 =A0that
> =A0 =A0 =A0> in
> =A0 =A0 =A0> > > any community of truly fluent people, either= one of them would get
> =A0 =A0 =A0> > > phased out, or they would diverge in meaning= , usage, connotation
> =A0 =A0 =A0> etc.
> =A0 =A0 =A0> > > At the very least it would become a way of d= ifferentiating between
> =A0 =A0 =A0> > > cliques, which is the thin end of the wedge = for dialectisation.
> =A0 =A0 =A0You
> =A0 =A0 =A0> > > just can't have two ways of doing exactl= y the same thing with only
> =A0 =A0 =A0> > > whim to choose between them. It's great = in class, but in the field
> =A0 =A0 =A0> > > it's not tenable. It's not how langu= age works.
> =A0 =A0 =A0> >
> =A0 =A0 =A0> > > On Apr 4, 10:04 pm, Luke Bergen <[5= ][6]lukeaber...@= gmail.com>
> =A0 =A0 =A0wrote:
> =A0 =A0 =A0> > > > I think his point was that these dialec= tic splits could result
> =A0 =A0 =A0in
> =A0 =A0 =A0> two
> =A0 =A0 =A0> > > groups
> =A0 =A0 =A0> > > > of people not being able to understand = one another.
> =A0 =A0 =A0> >
> =A0 =A0 =A0> > > > If one group of people liked using the = place structure so much
> =A0 =A0 =A0> that they
> =A0 =A0 =A0> > > > just ignored FA what would happen if th= ey saw something like {fi
> =A0 =A0 =A0> lo zdani
> =A0 =A0 =A0> > > cu
> =A0 =A0 =A0> > > > klama fa mi lo zarci} and got completel= y confused (you know, cuz
> =A0 =A0 =A0> > > generations
> =A0 =A0 =A0> > > > later FA would have basically been drop= ped out of the language
> =A0 =A0 =A0by
> =A0 =A0 =A0> this
> =A0 =A0 =A0> > > > group).
> =A0 =A0 =A0> >
> =A0 =A0 =A0> > > > On Mon, Apr 4, 2011 at 2:35 PM, Michael= Turniansky <
> =A0 =A0 =A0> > > [6][7]mturnian...@gmail.com>wrote:
> =A0 =A0 =A0> >
> =A0 =A0 =A0> > > > > On Sun, Apr 3, 2011 at 8:08 PM, Jo= el T.
> =A0 =A0 =A0> <[7][8]joelofara...@gmail.com>
> =A0 =A0 =A0> > > wrote:
> =A0 =A0 =A0> >
> =A0 =A0 =A0> > > > >> In any case, surely running tw= o systems side-by-side is
> =A0 =A0 =A0asking
> =A0 =A0 =A0> for
> =A0 =A0 =A0> > > > >> dialectisation (is that a word= ?), where speakers in one area
> =A0 =A0 =A0> get used
> =A0 =A0 =A0> > > > >> to one system while speakers i= n another prefer the other?
> =A0 =A0 =A0> >
> =A0 =A0 =A0> > > > > It can, and does. But we consider = the flexibility to be a
> =A0 =A0 =A0plus.
> =A0 =A0 =A0> > > That
> =A0 =A0 =A0> > > > > way, any person coming from a natu= ral language background of
> =A0 =A0 =A0> say,
> =A0 =A0 =A0> > > Turkish,
> =A0 =A0 =A0> > > > > can from sentences the way that se= ems most natural to them,
> =A0 =A0 =A0> while
> =A0 =A0 =A0> > > someone
> =A0 =A0 =A0> > > > > coming from an English background = can form setnences the most
> =A0 =A0 =A0> natural
> =A0 =A0 =A0> > > way to
> =A0 =A0 =A0> > > > > them. And both will be understood = equally well. We had, for
> =A0 =A0 =A0> example,
> =A0 =A0 =A0> > > a
> =A0 =A0 =A0> > > > > while a back, a discussion over wh= ich was "better": to use
> =A0 =A0 =A0"cu"
> =A0 =A0 =A0> often,
> =A0 =A0 =A0> > > or to
> =A0 =A0 =A0> > > > > totally eschew it in favor of sumt= i that are competely
> =A0 =A0 =A0> terminated so
> =A0 =A0 =A0> > > that
> =A0 =A0 =A0> > > > > there was no need for it (i.e. &qu= ot;lo gerku cu barda" vs. "lo
> =A0 =A0 =A0gerku
> =A0 =A0 =A0> ku
> =A0 =A0 =A0> > > > > barda"). There are vocal prop= onents on each side, so it
> =A0 =A0 =A0amounts
> =A0 =A0 =A0> to a
> =A0 =A0 =A0> > > > > dialectical split, but.. so what?<= br> > =A0 =A0 =A0> > > > > --gejyspa
> =A0 =A0 =A0> >
> =A0 =A0 =A0> > > > > --
> =A0 =A0 =A0> > > > > You received this message because = you are subscribed to the
> =A0 =A0 =A0> Google
> =A0 =A0 =A0> > > Groups
> =A0 =A0 =A0> > > > > "lojban" group.
> =A0 =A0 =A0> > > > > To post to this group, send email = to
> =A0 =A0 =A0[8][9]lojban@googlegroups.com.
> =A0 =A0 =A0> > > > > To unsubscribe from this grou= p, send email to
> =A0 =A0 =A0> > > > > [9][10]lojban+unsubscribe@go= oglegroups.com.
> =A0 =A0 =A0> > > > > For more options, visit this = group at
> =A0 =A0 =A0> > > > >[10][11]http://groups.google= .com/group/lojban?hl=3Den.
> =A0 =A0 =A0> >
> =A0 =A0 =A0> > > --
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> =A0 =A0 =A0>
> =A0 =A0 =A0> --
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> =A0 =A0 =A0> --
> =A0 =A0 =A0> mu'o mi'e .arpis.
> =A0 =A0 =A0>
> =A0 =A0 =A0> --
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> =A0 =A0 =A0>
> =A0 =A0 =A0> References
> =A0 =A0 =A0>
> =A0 =A0 =A0> Visible links
> =A0 =A0 =A0> 1. mailto:[21]joelofarabia@gmail.com
> =A0 =A0 =A0> 2.
> =A0 =A0 =A0[22]http://www.tlg.u= ci.edu/%7Eopoudjis/%0Alojbanbrochure/lessons/less2changeplaces.html
> =A0 =A0 =A0> 3. mailto:[23]lukeaber...@gmail.com
> =A0 =A0 =A0> 4. mailto:[24]joelofara...@gmail.com
> =A0 =A0 =A0> 5. mailto:[25]lukeaber...@gmail.com
> =A0 =A0 =A0> 6. mailto:[26]mturnian...@gmail.com
> =A0 =A0 =A0> 7. mailto:[27]joelofara...@gmail.com
> =A0 =A0 =A0> 8. mailto:[28]lojban@googlegroups.com
> =A0 =A0 =A0> 9. mailto:[29]lojban%2Bunsubscribe@googlegroups.com<= /a>
> =A0 =A0 =A0> 10. [30]http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den=
> =A0 =A0 =A0> 11. mailto:[31]lojban@googlegroups.com
> =A0 =A0 =A0> 12. mailto:[32]lojban%2Bunsubscribe@googlegroups.com=
> =A0 =A0 =A0> 13. [33]http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den=
> =A0 =A0 =A0> 14. mailto:[34]lojban@googlegroups.com
> =A0 =A0 =A0> 15. mailto:[35]lojban%2Bunsubscribe@googlegroups.com=
> =A0 =A0 =A0> 16. [36]http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den=
> =A0 =A0 =A0--
> =A0 =A0 =A0.i ma'a lo bradi ku penmi gi'e du
>
> =A0 =A0 =A0--
> =A0 =A0 =A0You received this message because you are subscribed to the= Google
> =A0 =A0 =A0Groups "lojban" group.
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> =A0 =A0 =A0[39]http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den.
>
> =A0 =A0--
> =A0 =A0Alex R
>
> =A0 =A01. mailto:alyn.post@lodockikumazvati.org
> =A0 =A04. mailto:lukeaber...@gmail.com
> =A0 =A05. mailto:joelofara...@gmail.com
> =A0 =A06. mailto:lukeaber...@gmail.com
> =A0 =A07. mailto:mturnian...@gmail.com
> =A0 =A08. mailto:joelofara...@gmail.com
> =A0 =A09. mailto:lojban@googlegroups.com
> =A0 10. mailto:lojban%2Bunsubscribe@googlegroups.com
> =A0 11. http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den
> =A0 12. mailto:lojban@googlegroups.com
> =A0 13. mailto:lojban%2Bunsubscribe@googlegroups.com
> =A0 14. http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den
> =A0 15. mailto:lojban@googlegroups.com
> =A0 16. mailto:lojban%2Bunsubscribe@googlegroups.com
> =A0 17. http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den
> =A0 18. mailto:lojban@googlegroups.com
> =A0 19. mailto:lojban%2Bunsubscribe@googlegroups.com
> =A0 20. http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den
> =A0 21. mailto:joelofarabia@gmail.com
> =A0 22. http://www.tlg.uci.edu/= %7Eopoudjis/%0Alojbanbrochure/lessons/less2changeplaces.html
> =A0 23. mailto:lukeaber...@gmail.com
> =A0 24. mailto:joelofara...@gmail.com
> =A0 25. mailto:lukeaber...@gmail.com
> =A0 26. mailto:mturnian...@gmail.com
> =A0 27. mailto:joelofara...@gmail.com
> =A0 28. mailto:lojban@googlegroups.com
> =A0 29. mailto:lojban%252Bunsubscribe@googlegroups.com
> =A0 30. http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den
> =A0 31. mailto:lojban@googlegroups.com
> =A0 32. mailto:lojban%252Bunsubscribe@googlegroups.com
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=A0=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0= =A0Alex R

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